hunter 54 sailboat review

HUNTER 54 Detailed Review

If you are a boat enthusiast looking to get more information on specs, built, make, etc. of different boats, then here is a complete review of HUNTER 54. Built by Hunter Marine (USA) and designed by John Cherubini, the boat was first built in 1980. It has a hull type of Fin w/spade rudder and LOA is 16.71. Its sail area/displacement ratio 19.45. Its auxiliary power tank, manufactured by undefined, runs on Diesel.

HUNTER 54 has retained its value as a result of superior building, a solid reputation, and a devoted owner base. Read on to find out more about HUNTER 54 and decide if it is a fit for your boating needs.

Boat Information

Boat specifications, sail boat calculation, rig and sail specs, auxillary power tank, accomodations, contributions, who designed the hunter 54.

HUNTER 54 was designed by John Cherubini.

Who builds HUNTER 54?

HUNTER 54 is built by Hunter Marine (USA).

When was HUNTER 54 first built?

HUNTER 54 was first built in 1980.

How long is HUNTER 54?

HUNTER 54 is 13.26 m in length.

What is mast height on HUNTER 54?

HUNTER 54 has a mast height of 14.87 m.

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• Sailboat Guide

Hunter 54 is a 54 ′ 9 ″ / 16.7 m monohull sailboat designed by John Cherubini and Cortland Steck and built by Hunter Marine between 1980 and 1983.

Rig and Sails

Auxilary power, accomodations, calculations.

The theoretical maximum speed that a displacement hull can move efficiently through the water is determined by it's waterline length and displacement. It may be unable to reach this speed if the boat is underpowered or heavily loaded, though it may exceed this speed given enough power. Read more.

Classic hull speed formula:

Hull Speed = 1.34 x √LWL

Max Speed/Length ratio = 8.26 ÷ Displacement/Length ratio .311 Hull Speed = Max Speed/Length ratio x √LWL

Sail Area / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the power of the sails relative to the weight of the boat. The higher the number, the higher the performance, but the harder the boat will be to handle. This ratio is a "non-dimensional" value that facilitates comparisons between boats of different types and sizes. Read more.

SA/D = SA ÷ (D ÷ 64) 2/3

• SA : Sail area in square feet, derived by adding the mainsail area to 100% of the foretriangle area (the lateral area above the deck between the mast and the forestay).
• D : Displacement in pounds.

Ballast / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the stability of a boat's hull that suggests how well a monohull will stand up to its sails. The ballast displacement ratio indicates how much of the weight of a boat is placed for maximum stability against capsizing and is an indicator of stiffness and resistance to capsize.

Ballast / Displacement * 100

Displacement / Length Ratio

A measure of the weight of the boat relative to it's length at the waterline. The higher a boat’s D/L ratio, the more easily it will carry a load and the more comfortable its motion will be. The lower a boat's ratio is, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed or beyond. Read more.

D/L = (D ÷ 2240) ÷ (0.01 x LWL)³

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds.
• LWL: Waterline length in feet

Comfort Ratio

This ratio assess how quickly and abruptly a boat’s hull reacts to waves in a significant seaway, these being the elements of a boat’s motion most likely to cause seasickness. Read more.

Comfort ratio = D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam 1.33 )

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds
• LOA: Length overall in feet
• Beam: Width of boat at the widest point in feet

Capsize Screening Formula

This formula attempts to indicate whether a given boat might be too wide and light to readily right itself after being overturned in extreme conditions. Read more.

CSV = Beam ÷ ³√(D / 64)

Hull by Luhrs & Cherubini, Rig by Steck.

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Review of Hunter 54

Basic specs., sailing characteristics.

This section covers widely used rules of thumb to describe the sailing characteristics. Please note that even though the calculations are correct, the interpretation of the results might not be valid for extreme boats.

Sorry, we have no sailing characteristics available for this boat.

Sailing statistics

This section is statistical comparison with similar boats of the same category. The basis of the following statistical computations is our unique database with more than 26,000 different boat types and 350,000 data points.

Sorry, we do not have sufficient statistical information available for this boat to provide a significant reliable analysis.

Maintenance

Are your sails worn out? You might find your next sail here: Sails for Sale

If you need to renew parts of your running rig and is not quite sure of the dimensions, you may find the estimates computed below useful.

This section is reserved boat owner's modifications, improvements, etc. Here you might find (or contribute with) inspiration for your boat.

Do you have changes/improvements you would like to share? Upload a photo and describe what you have done.

We are always looking for new photos. If you can contribute with photos for Hunter 54 it would be a great help.

If you have any comments to the review, improvement suggestions, or the like, feel free to contact us . Criticism helps us to improve.

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Your Ultimate Boating Resource

1982 Hunter 54 SL

1982 hunter 54 sl specs.

• Boat Type : Monohull Sailboats
• Quantity: 1
• Horse Power: 48
• Type: Diesel
• Hull Material : Fiberglass
• Beam : 11'4"
• Length : 54'
• Net Weight : 20500 lbs
• Looking for the Boat Manual? 1982 Hunter Boats 54 SL Request Boat Manual Now

Related Boats

• 1981 Hunter 54 SL
• 1983 Hunter 54 SL
• 1984 Hunter 54 SL

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Hunter 54 history

• Thread starter Alan
• Start date Apr 14, 2003
• Hunter Owner Forums

I am trying to find any information on the Hunter 54 that Warren Luhrs raced around the world. Was it a prototype that was more heavily built than the production Hunter 54's? Where is the boat now? I would appreciate any information anyone can provide. Thanks.  

Thursdays Child perhaps? Are you thinking of Thursdays Child that raced in the 94-95 BOC? I believe it was originally raced around the world in the early 80's (perhaps by Warren)? I think this boat is 60' but I'm not certain. I have numerous racing photos of her. The owner during the BOC race was Arnold Taylor of Portsmouth NH. I've attached a link to the organization that now operates Thursdays Child. She is being used to raise money for charities directed at saving marine mammals.[email protected]  

Peggie Hall/HeadMistress

Or maybe Hunter's Child... Hunter's Child was built in the early 90s and also raced in a BOC, sailed by Steve Pettingill.Hunter's Child was on display, either right before or right after that race, at Sail Expo in Atlantic City in '93 or '94. She was built specifically to race in the BOC...I don't remember how well she did, or what became of her afterward.  

Some history. I like your question. I hope we see lots of answers. I tried a Google search("Hunter's Child Sailboat") and found a few things. One is in the Related Link. I was fortunate just to get aboard the HC50 once at Annapolis.  

It seems odd but the boat you describe... was in an e-Bay auction about a month ago. I tried to get a fellow skipper to pursue it. If I remember right (this is becoming more difficult as I get older) but the minimum bid was like $37K. The boat was located in the LA area.Terry  

newly anonymous

Open 60 Thursdays Child is an Open 60 built by Bergstrom & Ridder. It was this boat that was skippered by Luhrs, and Hunter's Child was skippered by Pettingill. Thursdays Child, if I recall correctly, was the prototype for the B&R rig. I saw it about three years ago when it was being restored in the KKMI yard in Richmond. It was DEFINATELY not a Hunter 54.  

Take a look on yachtworld.com Alittle off subject but go to yachtworld.com for hunter 54's for sale. A few months ago someone sailed from the west coast to hawaii on one and gave day to day acount of their trip. Too bad a 54 wont fit on the river. craig  

Stirling Hasen

Quoted text from the Hunter 54 Brochure When I bought my 1982 Hunter 54, I was lucky enough to obtain an original brochure of the Hunter 54. Below is quoted text from the brochure and I'm attaching a picture of the full brochure (All 4 Pages, Enjoy!) Note that since I can only upload a 80k photo, please email me ([email protected]) if you desire a high resolution image of this brochure.Quoted from Hunter Brochure "After three years of research and 15,000 miles at sea and four transatlantic crossings - the Hunter 54 is ready.There's never been anything like her. Our goal was to create a production yacht which combined the style and performance of the finest custom grand prix boats with the comfort, stability and ease-of-handling of a true world-class cruiser. The result is the Hunter 54, a product of three years of development and thousands of offshore miles (including four transatlantic passages) in all kinds of conditions. The 54 is not only a sophisticated combination of the best of current technology, but also launches several innovative new design concepts.  One of the most unique features is a gracefully reversed transom that is not only stepped to provide a convenient boarding platform, but also opens to revel a water-tight compartment housing the dinghy! This feature provides an extremely easy method of boarding from the water, and also eliminates the towing of a tender. Another remarkable feature is a solar charging system which keeps the batteries on charge when the auxiliary is not in use. There are very few custom yachts that can compare with the Hunter 54 in beauty, comfort or performance. The 54 is an extremely fast yacht, un-compromised by any racing rule, yet designed and rigged to be stable and easy to handle under all conditions. Perhaps the most important aspect of the new 54 is that it is a Hunter - a trueproduction yacht complete with Cruise Pac, the most complete standard equipment list available. This also means that the cost of a fully equipped Hunter 54 is substantially below similar boats with no standard equipment. Standards include roller furling; on deck anchor well and anchor roller; pedestal steering; and self tailing winches. Below decks is an inviting entertainment area, comprised of a spacious main salon with twin dining tables, a complete galley, and private staterooms fore and aft with individual heads and showers. There are two companionways with wet lockers for each, and unusually easy engine access via a removable galley unit.  Special design features make the Hunter 54 particularly strong and safe. An internal, unidirectional glass frame stiffens the hull and carries all major hull and rig loads, thus relieving the hull itself from major stresses. A special A-frame carries mast compression and also takes shroud loads via stainless steel tie rods, and a special keel receiver is designed to absorb the shock of running aground. Auxiliary power comes from a 48hp diesel. The Hunter 54 is truly a breakthrough in high-performance, offshore cruising. And its Hunter heritage means quality and completeness with exceptional affordability."  

2nd Try At Brochure Photo Here is my 2nd try at posting the photo of the Hunter 54 Brochure email me for a high resolution version of this. ([email protected])  

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Are Hunter Sailboats Any Good? (My Honest Experience)

There are a ton of different sailboat brands in the world today. Trying to decide which one is best, is no easy task. It comes down to a bit of fact and personal opinion, but that’s my opinion.

Hunter is a very well-known brand of sailboats. Hunter sailboats are a good boat depending on your needs and what you will be using your boat for primarily. They were designed as a more budget-friendly boat with all of the basic features needed for good coastal cruising.

The debate about whether a Hunter sailboat is good or not has been going on since the company started and there are a lot of pros and cons out there on the sailboat forums. This article is going to go over Hunters and cover as many of the pros and cons as possible. There will be facts and my personal opinion throughout this article. I just want to cover as much as possible so you will have the knowledge you need when considering a Hunter.

The History Of Hunter Sailboats

In the 1800s Henry Luhrs, a German immigrant, outfitted trading ships. He continued to work on boats his whole life and eventually passed the skills on to his grandson. His grandson was also named Henry and continued the family trade on the Jersey coast, building and repairing recreational and fishing boats. After a while, Henry and his sons started the Hunter Company in 1973 in Alachua, Florida, as a sailboat manufacturer.

Luhrs was the owner of the company, but the early boat designs were done by a man named John E. Cherubini. One of the most recognizable boats of the Hunter legacy is the Cherubini Hunter 30. In my opinion, this is a fantastic boat.

Towards the end of the 1980s, the company did run into trouble. Luhrs was not necessarily running the company at this time, he was out sailing the world and had let a board of management take over. The management team had started to run the company into the ground. They did this by only offering a 1-year warranty, poorly built boats, and terrible customer service for its customers. This would be sure to end any company. Luhrs, with fear his company would go under, decided to return immediately and address the issues at hand. He decided to do a whole restructuring of production and decided extending the warranty from one year to five years would be a good start. Luhrs also hired Canadian designer Rob Mazza in 1991 to take over the design and coordinate the production process. These many steps and others helped get the company back on track.

Hunter is responsible for several market innovations, including their trademark stainless steel cockpit arch and their use of the B&R rig. The B&R rig uses swept spreaders that are usually angled aft, together with “stays” running diagonally downward from the tip of the spreaders to the attachment of the next pair of spreaders to the mast or to the intersection of the mast with the deck, that facilitates a pre-bend of the mast (curving aft).

In 2012 Hunter Marine entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The company was sold in August 2012 to David E. Marlow, owner of Marlow Yachts and the name changed to Marlow-Hunter, LLC.

Marlow-Hunter continues to produce sailboats to this day and I must say….they are beautiful designs.

Before we start the debate about whether Hunter sailboats are good or not, let’s look at one or two of their better models.

Cherubini Hunter 30

The Cherubini Hunter 30 is one of the most recognizable Hunters out there today. They were first built in the year 1973 and were made until the year1983. Roughly a thousand of these boats were made and you can find them all over the world.

Here are some more facts about the Hunter 30.

• Hull Type: Fin with rudder on skeg
• Rigging Type: Masthead Sloop
• LOA: 30.40 ft / 9.27 m
• Displacement: 9,700 lb / 4,400 kg
• Beam: 10.17 ft / 3.10 m

I have personally sailed on this boat and I found it to be very solid and a great all-around boat. I sailed it in the Gulf of Mexico and the bays around the area and it was always a great experience.

When sailing it felt very sturdy in the water. I never got the feeling that we were being pushed off course in the slightest. There were also a few times that we heeled over and put the rails in the water and it handled that just fine. From the outside, the boat is very recognizable with its unique design, but the cabin below is quite a common layout and design.

I feel like the cabin resembles most 30-foot boats of that time period. There might have been a touch more space in the overall design than other boats but the look and feel are all the same if you compare it to a Catalina or O’Day of the same time period. That is my personal opinion of course.

Would I purchase one of these for myself? I would definitely consider it. They are a great design and very solid. I don’t think I would have any problems with this boat, whether I was sailing it on a lake or across the Atlantic. Some will say it is not a bluewater boat, but I have read plenty of articles about people actually sailing in the bluewater. It just comes down to the captain and what you are comfortable with.

Let’s look at another type of Hunter, the Hunter 37 Legend!

The Hunter 37 Legend

This boat is a less commonly seen Hunter but still a very impressive one. Warren Luhrs was the designer of this vessel. It was not in production long just from 1986 to 1988, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a good design. This design gets great reviews from the internet and has a great design for speed and comfort. I have only researched this one and watched videos about it. I would very much like to sail one of these someday, but they are not very common as I mentioned.

• Hull Type: Fin w/spade rudder
• Rigging Type: Fractional Sloop
• LOA: 37.50 ft / 11.43 m
• LWL: 31.33 ft / 9.55 m
• Beam: 12.83 ft / 3.91 m
• S.A. (reported): 704.00 ft 2  / 65.40 m 2
• Draft (max): 6.67 ft / 2.03 m
• Displacement: 14,900 lb / 6,759 kg

To get a better look at this boat please take a look at the video below. It is a quick overview of the boat itself.

After researching this boat, I would very much like to have it. This one has a ton of great features and would be perfect for some long weekend sail trips with a good group of friends. If you find a good deal on this one, I would take a second look.

Let us address one of the bigger issues in the next section, which is the bad reviews Hunter sailboats get.

Why Do Hunter Sailboats Get Such Bad Reviews? Personal Opinion

I have done a lot of research and read a lot of forums about Hunter sailboats online and they tend to get a bad rap. There are a lot of discussions about how they are cheaply made and won’t handle open ocean sailing, but I have seen videos of them handling it just fine. Maybe people have had bad experiences with a Hunter before?

There are also bad reviews on certain designs which make sense. Not every sailboat that Hunter has produced, is something I would consider. That can be said about every boat company. I’m sure even Catalina (my favorite brand) has a bad design here or there. One of the complaints was a Hunter sailboat designed without a backstay. This is very upsetting to some sailors and I would have to agree.

The backstay is what helps hold up the back end of the boom when sailing. Technically the mainsail does this as well but the backstay helps keep the shape much better. I have lowered the sail before without a backstay and you have to be very careful because your boom is going to drop right into the cockpit if you don’t have some other means of support. Some people may have a good reason for no backstay, maybe in a racing condition, but for casual life on the water, I definitely want one.

I wouldn’t rule out Hunters just for this or maybe one bad experience on one, you need to give the Hunter brand a chance. Everybody has an opinion on the internet and a lot of them will be against Hunter sailboats. That’s the internet for you though. The internet can say whatever it wants about anything in this world, even if it doesn’t have good evidence. That’s why I think personal experience is the best evidence here.

Take car brands for example. So many people will say don’t buy a ford or a chevy or dodge because it will break down on you. To be clear, every brand of car has had models broken down on them. It is not necessarily the brand, it’s the improper care of the vehicle or a random breakdown of an engine part. The brand itself still makes good vehicles you just had bad luck.

That is why I say you need to try out a few Hunters before claiming them to be a terrible boat.

The last thing I will say about this subject is that I have met multiple Hunter sailboat owners and they have loved their boats. I have not met one captain who owned a Hunter and did not like it. I only found out about their bad reviews by going online and researching them. Take all of this with a grain of salt though, I am just giving you my honest opinion. Check out the video below for another opinion on Hunter sailboats. This is a great video, be sure to check out his channel as well.

Final Thoughts

This article talked about Hunter sailboats and if they are any good. The history of the Hunter brand was discussed and is currently named Marlow-Hunter because the Marlow Yacht company purchased Hunter in 2011. We discussed the Cherubini 30 and the 37 Legend, both of which are great boats in my opinion. That was a big topic in the last section of this article, opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that’s what keeps these great sailboat discussions going. We need these great discussions to keep going and fill our minds with as much knowledge as possible. Get out there and talk to people with Hunter sailboats to get the most information you possibly can. I hope this article provided you with some Hunter knowledge to help you in your sailing life. Cheers!

Boatlifehq owner and author/editor of this article.

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Bet You Didn't Know This About Hunters!

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So why did you use 3M 4200 instead of 3M 5200 for re-bedding the keel?  

On the advice of people far more experienced that I. We considered 5200 but there is ever another problem with the keel, getting it off is as bad, if not worse, than an epoxy bed. 5200 gives the flex but is still a cast-iron bastard to get off if something goes wrong. Since the bolts are there to provide the mechanical attachment to the boat and the bolts on the 340 are 4 1 1/4" and 1 1", they had plenty of strength. 3M 4200 is an adhesive and is still insanely strong. So we accepted it as a compromise to retain a lot of the original bond, allow the keel to flex like it is supposed to and make it actually possible to drop the keel in the event damage is done. And not at the cost of two solid days in the slings and damage to the keel stub in getting it off. 4200 will actually separate. They were recommending a straight bedding compound like they do on race boats. 4200 was the middle ground from a 5200/epoxy bed. Matt  

Is that the super shallow draft version? I hear that is an expensive option! To me it does seem to be strong, but only if there are no air gaps. But of course it is not exactly making for easy maintenance. Seems to me to be a more of a budget cutting measure as I am sure the epoxy that they buy by the tanker full is cheaper than 3M 5200, but is not made for any kind of repairs or maintenance. Kind of like the new "sealed for life" transmissions. Sure fine for the first owner, but not so much so for the second who has to have it rebuilt because they made it so you could not have the fluid changed as part of the scheduled maintenance.  

So, in all this, I'm still wondering what caused the damage in the first place. If it was cracked and leaking toward the aft end of the keel - that sounds like a pretty good grounding.  

We exposed the joint and it appeared to be a hairline crack towards the aft on the port side. Barely visible. There is no evidence of the boat ever having gone aground, we've never been aground since we bought it and the boat has spent its entire life on the Chesapeake Bay. Not impossible to ground and do damage but one of the safest places in the world to do it. I've seen keels with grounding damage. No scrapes, no dents, no chunks removed, nothing on ours. Only evidence of an issue on the keel was the cracking fairing compound and that is a common problem on externally ballasted boats. Inspection found no evidence of any keel damage at all. Our best speculation is given the thinness of the keel profile at the aft is more prone to flex and there isn't a lot of surface area there to bond to. And after putting the keel back on the long keel studs made it hard to get good torque on the nuts. Probably a combination of the long bolts, thin keel and perhaps a light amount of epoxy contributed. We sailed the boat in heavy conditions during a day race and we think that it started the crack to open just enough as the keel flexed in 30 knots of wind and short 4-6 foot chop. The amount of water was negligible. Perhaps a paper towel's worth a day after we splashed following our two weeks on the hard for inspection. I checked the boat twice a day for the six weeks leading up to the repair date. Even the surveyor said it was a long term problem and recommended against repair unless we planned to keep the boat a long time (more than 5 years). Just live with it, sell it and make it someone else's problem. This we obvious did not do. There was no corrosion on the studs and virtually no delamination in the glass in rearmost stud tunnels. So we caught it very early before it had a chance to damage the studs or wreck the rear sump laminate. Crevice corrosion on the bottom of the #4 backing plate but that is not uncommon given the shape of the sump in this area. As I said, speculation at best. Since the repair, the boat is back to being bone dry in the bilge. Matt  

Matt- FWIW "Hunter" went out of business about a year ago. The new owners, who bought the assets, may or may not be building the same way. 5200 requires no mixing but requires a fairly long cure time, days. Eventually it does get quite hard but I suspect it still is more flexible than many epoxies. Epoxy has to be mixed properly and typically cures in hours, or overnight. So besides price, there could be good reasons to use one or the other in the larger manufacturing process.  

hellosailor said: ...FWIW "Hunter" went out of business about a year ago. The new owners, who bought the assets, may or may not be building the same way... Click to expand...

Five, then I've been mislead. A member of one of the ofrums said they went by the Hunter yard and it was padlocked and closed. This was followed by news that they had filed for bankruptcy and subsequently, the new owners bought the assets of the company and were re-opening it again, with no mention that they were also buying the liabilities, specifically, no mention that they would honor existing contracts or warranties. If that's incorrect, then that's incorrect. As you say you've actually spoken to the new owner, it would seem that you've got better information. Have you seen any specific citation that the new company IS honoring past liabilities, including purchase contracts for existing hulls, and warranty expenses? It would seem that they should have been very proud to announce that, if that were the case. I missed the memo?  

hellosailor said: Five, then I've been mislead. A member of one of the ofrums said they went by the Hunter yard and it was padlocked and closed. This was followed by news that they had filed for bankruptcy and subsequently, the new owners bought the assets of the company and were re-opening it again, with no mention that they were also buying the liabilities, specifically, no mention that they would honor existing contracts or warranties. If that's incorrect, then that's incorrect. As you say you've actually spoken to the new owner, it would seem that you've got better information. Have you seen any specific citation that the new company IS honoring past liabilities, including purchase contracts for existing hulls, and warranty expenses? It would seem that they should have been very proud to announce that, if that were the case. I missed the memo? Click to expand...

"perhaps your friend visited them " I never mentioned a friend . or an acquaintance . I said someone on another forum. A friend is someone who will bring you bail money, or any other unlikely request, and ask questions later. An acquaintance is someone you'd be reluctant to call for the same reason as your friend. Some guy online? Could be a dog (old joke) for all you know on the internet. As you say, things change during a bankruptcy sale. The old company and the old ways didn't make a sufficient profit. The new company will make changes to ensure profits. And typically, that means, yes, they will do things differently. If the old company riveted on the wings (like Boeing) or welded on the wings, the new one might glue the wings on. As they are on some modern combat aircraft, even if those are also from Boeing. And with some stuff today, I see glue used in big plants and multiple expensive screws used in smaller plants, where they don't know what glue is. Yet. Slave labor is cheaper than glue. No way to tell unless you call Mr. Marlow and ask, huh?  

"They pretty much told him every single Hunter keel was put on with epoxy. " Heheh. Cheeki Rafiki? Maybe you didn't hear about, what was it, Thursday's Child? A boat custom built for the head of Hunter back around the late 80's, that lost its keel very soon after launching. One might suspect that event inspired someone to use epoxy on the later boats. Ya'think? As to 4300/vs/5200 and peeling off laminates, that sounds like someone doesn't quite have it right. If 4200 and 5200 have "almost the same" bond strength, they will remain bonded to a laminate, or not, in the same way. Given that the strength of laminates will also vary quite a bit, there would have to be a significant difference between the bond strength (4200/5200) and the 4200 would have to be significantly weaker in order to ensure it failed to bond, and released from the laminate. I don't know, I'm not looking those up. Just saying, the (non)numbers don't add up unless there is some significant difference. If you have, say, a six by 36 inch area to bond, that's only 216 square inches, but if the bond strength is 700# per square inch, that's still enough to keep a seventy-five ton keel attached. Assuming the laminate can hold up to that.(G)  

The notion that the keel was held in place by epoxy, and that the keel bolts are essentially superfluous, is very misleading. The epoxy is there to keep the water out, period. Epoxy is very strong stuff, but it is also prone to crack propagation (as you have apparently found out). Therefore, the material tensile strength (e.g., the value given in an earlier post in this thread) may seem pretty impressive, but that is determined using a very small homogeneous specimen under optimal conditions. One little flaw (and there are always flaws under real world conditions) and catastrophic failure is inevitable. Steel, bronze, and iron are much more forgiving, which is one reason they are used in applications with high tensile loads (like keel bolts). I can pretty much guarantee that without bolts your keel would have fallen off a long time ago.  

On a quality-built boat, a hull-keel attachment should be seen as a permanent bond, unlike deck fittings, stanchions, thru-hulls and other fittings that may need to be rebedded, and might be more appropriately sealed with butyl tape or silicone. The two places where 3M 5200 is the ideal adhesive are the hull-keel attachment and the hull-deck attachment. The problem with epoxy in the hull-keel joint is not lack of strength, it is that epoxy cracks. Cracks allow water ingress. Hence, we come to the problem at hand: a leaking keel. Some of you need to pay attention to terminology. There is a difference between "epoxy" and an epoxy putty or mix. Mixing epoxy with another substance lessens its tensile strength and may give it different material properties. "Such improvements are usually achieved at the sacrifice of tensile, flexural, and impact strength (when granular fillers are used). Most fillers reduce the coefficient of thermal expansion and shrinkage in proportion to the amount of filler rather than the type of filler used." from "Dow Liquid Epoxy Resins". http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0030/0901b8038003041c.pdf?filepath=/296-00224.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc I want the strongest, most flexible adhesive on my hull-keel joint. That is not pure epoxy by any stretch of the imagination. There is an Latin expression used in law: "res ipsa loquitur": "the thing speaks for itself". When you keel leaks and/or falls off, without any apparent, abnormal, impact - that speaks for itself. You can argue against reality all you want without changing it.  

jameswilson29 said: On a quality-built boat, a hull-keel attachment should be seen as a permanent bond, unlike deck fittings, stanchions, thru-hulls and other fittings that may need to be rebedded, and might be more appropriately sealed with butyl tape or silicone. The two places where 3M 5200 is the ideal adhesive are the hull-keel attachment and the hull-deck attachment. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: The problem with epoxy in the hull-keel joint is not lack of strength, it is that epoxy cracks. Cracks allow water ingress. Hence, we come to the problem at hand: a leaking keel. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: Some of you need to pay attention to terminology. There is a difference between "epoxy" and an epoxy putty or mix. Mixing epoxy with another substance lessens its tensile strength and may give it different material properties. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: I want the strongest, most flexible adhesive on my hull-keel joint. That is not pure epoxy by any stretch of the imagination. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: There is an Latin expression used in law: "res ipsa loquitur": "the thing speaks for itself". When you keel leaks and/or falls off, without any apparent, abnormal, impact - that speaks for itself. You can argue against reality all you want without changing it. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: I want the strongest, most flexible adhesive on my hull-keel joint. Click to expand...

Read the initial post. The OP refers repeatedly to Hunter's use of "epoxy", not epoxy putty or an epoxy mixture. My 37 year old Pearson keel does not leak and the bolts look great considering their age; my bilge is usually dry. I don't know what Pearson used in 1977 and I don't know when 3M 5200 came into widespread use. Pearson did do a good job with the basics. Just because many manufacturers do the same thing, does not make it right. Sometimes they use something or do something because it is easiest and/or most economical, or because everyone else is doing it that way. There have been many class-action lawsuits against the participants in particular industries who were all doing something wrong. It might, however, provide a legal defense to someone who follows the herd and uses the same methods and materials. No one is infallible. Every one should do his or her own research. No one should assume someone is always correct because he or she is an "expert" or a "professional". I know you do not like 3M 5200. I know you sell butyl tape and are an advocate for its use. I use butyl tape for the appropriate application. I also use silicone, polyester resin, epoxy resin, thickened epoxy putty, and 5200 for the appropriate application. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I applaud the OP for paying attention to his hull-keel joint. As someone who just repaired his rudder, I share his concern for the basics. Too many boaters are concerned about the latest and greatest gadgets and ignore the basics. Any one who follows the boating news knows that boats are having rudder and keel problems that did not exist, or were not reported, 40 years ago. There is a serious builder and/or industry problem to be addressed when keels start leaking and/or falling off relatively-new boats during normal usage.  

jameswilson29 said: Read the initial post. The OP refers repeatedly to Hunter's use of "epoxy", not epoxy putty or an epoxy mixture. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: My 37 year old Pearson keel does not leak and the bolts look great considering their age; my bilge is usually dry. I don't know what Pearson used in 1977 and I don't know when 3M 5200 came into widespread use. Pearson did do a good job with the basics. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: Just because many manufacturers do the same thing, does not make it right. Sometimes they use something or do something because it is easiest and/or most economical, or because everyone else is doing it that way. There have been many class-action lawsuits against the participants in particular industries who were all doing something wrong. It might, however, provide a legal defense to someone who follows the herd and uses the same methods and materials. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: No one is infallible. Every one should do his or her own research. No one should assume someone is always correct because he or she is an "expert" or a "professional". Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: I know you do not like 3M 5200. I know you sell butyl tape and are an advocate for its use. I use butyl tape for the appropriate application. I also use silicone, polyester resin, epoxy resin, thickened epoxy putty, and 5200 for the appropriate application. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Click to expand...

jameswilson29 said: There is a serious builder and/or industry problem to be addressed when keels start leaking and/or falling off relatively-new boats during normal usage. Click to expand...

Threads like this always make me appreciate the encapsulated keel on my old Cal. Not that encapsulated keels are completely problem free (e.g., the hull/keel lamination can flex if not built thick enough)...but the issues in this thread are pretty much irrelevant to a boat like mine.  

MaineSail for the win. As usual.  

Not really in it for a win just to let folks now that there is more than one way to set a keel, none of them being wrong, just different approaches... Some very, very experienced builders choose epoxy set keels.....  

I love how that trawler mast looks on your boat E! There's been allot of dooms dayers here lately. Sigh.  

Wow, I did not know there were winners and losers in discussions! So, who "won" the SDR thread with the professional delivery boat captain against some douchebag?  

Heh-heh. The douchebag! Obviously! As you well know, counselor, winners and losers are always decided by the preponderance of evidence (see above). I'm just sayin'.  

Oh boy, you asked for it Maine. It's the new FightClub: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/vessels-lost-missing-danger/105421-rallies-gone-wrong.html  

Maine, presumably that green fallen keel was lead. Anyone who has worked with lead for a while would know that lead forms a thin layer of oxide, exactly the same way that aluminum forms a molecular skin and raw iron develops a rust blemish. And that lead oxide layer will prevent any type of adhesive bond to the lead itself. So all it takes is casting the keel on Monday and not cleaning it off when bonding it on Tuesday, and the bond will only be to the oxide layer. And it will fail relatively easily. Which is not to blame everything on the worker or the metal. I've used 5200 on properly cleaned stainless and seen it peel off like silly putty after it cured. No idea why--but it has me convinced that I can't trust 5200 on stainless. On wood or FRP, I trust it just fine. The greatest advantage to keel bolts, is that you can LOOK at them and get some idea about whether they are doing their job. At least most of the time. Looking at a glued joint, you can't tell a damned thing about how well it is working. So you have to trust the builder, who of course always has used the finest skilled labor and has the highest quality product in mind.  

Aloha, we are planning on taking out our Hunter Passage 45 and re-bedding the keel. We have one bolt that is leaking and the last time they took her out and painted her, they just tightened the bolts, after seeing about a cm of gap all around. They placed the boats full weight on the keel and tightened the bolts. Does that sound right? Now 4 years later she is leaking a bit again. Could you please place the pictures of your keel being re-bedded. Thank you  

so you can get it apart if you need to unlike true love 5200 is for ever  

on fiberglass  

Matt Not sure you are still monitoring this forum. I just saw your post today (May 5, 2016) and was curious to learn more and to see photos. Ours is a 2006 H36 with keel issue. First noticed a crack at the hull to keel sump joint on the leading edge and also on the sump to keel flange. This was repaired by sanding down to show no crack and to then epoxy and glass air. Can't recall how we did the keel to sump crack, but definitely did not drop the keel. After repairing from the outside, saw a hairline crack in the bottom of the inside of the sump at the leading edge. Proceeded to gouge out the gelcoat to repair to find water come out. Would like to chat with you on my dime if it is ok with you. regards, Peter  

mpickering said: Trouble-free when it works and beyond incredibly strong. The keel bolts are an afterthought. You don't need them. I have 5 keel bolts, 4 of them 1 1/4" monsters and in an epoxy joint, they are superfluous. Click to expand...

Does this need any special repair unlike the ones mentioned in this thread? Hunter 33 broke loose and grounded. Boat yard sales it needs its inner liner repaired?  

Attachments

Best bet for you would be to start a new thread, as this one is 4+ years old. Based on what I see in your thumbnails, yes it does need to have the keel dropped, the stub and liner and any stringers fixed, and then have the keel properly reattached.  

always good to see a main sail, smacky, and wilson thread dredge though. Ah the good ole days.  

mpickering said: My wife and I are the happy owners of a 2000 Hunter 340. Boat surveyed almost flawlessly a year ago. Had a good season, saw a little rough weather on the Chesapeake and spent the winter in the water. Come the spring, we noticed water kept appearing in the bilge. We'd dry it out, it would come back. Over a couple months, we progressively eliminated sources until we finally began to realize the water was coming from the #4 and #5 aft most keel bolts. Out of an abundance of caution, we hauled the boat, brought the surveyor out and revealed that we likely had a crack in the keel bedding that was letting water in via the keel joint. Recommended repairs was to expose the joint and fill it. Most yards stated the only sure way to repair such an issue was to drop and rebed the keel. After much hand-wringing, the need for safety won out. We contracted for a yard in Annapolis to do the work and got the boat in the keel stand. They pulled the keel nuts and backing plates and we saw water in the tunnels. That cinched it. Hunter owners out there, do you ever wonder why you rarely hear about issues with Hunter keels? Here's the reason: View attachment 35265 That's air. Air from the gap from the saw required to cut away the keel joint to drop the keel. Air across 90% of the joint save for the first 3 keel bolt holes. That is all that is holding 4600+ pounds of lead in the air still attached to the boat. All courtesy of Hunter's preferred bedding compound for keels: Epoxy . I learned a lot that day. The main thing being that Hunters don't have keel issues because the bond is so strong it takes a very hard grounding to damage them. Even the factory was surprised to hear a 340 was getting the keel done. For some reason, lots of builders are putting keels on with epoxy nowadays. It makes sense from a maintenance standpoint. Trouble-free when it works and beyond incredibly strong. The keel bolts are an afterthought. You don't need them. I have 5 keel bolts, 4 of them 1 1/4" monsters and in an epoxy joint, they are superfluous. All five nuts were off and the keel was hanging on the boat from three plugs of epoxy that had formed around the forward 3 keel bolt studs. But epoxy creates stiffness along a joint of dissimilar materials that can and does flex. Hence why you're supposed to bed with something flexible to allow for that motion. As long as it holds up it will be fine. But, as my experience shows, once a little fatigue happens or the joint flexes beyond the tensile strength of the epoxy, it doesn't bend; it cracks. That's what we think happened in our boat. That probably combined with a day at the factory where not enough epoxy was put on the day my keel was bedded on. And when you need to fix it, here's where you wind up: View attachment 35273 Enjoy that view (or cringe in horror) and see what happens when epoxy as a joint compound fails you. The end result, though, was a keel rebed that was better than new. The keel stub was repaired to perfection, the keel was rebedded with 3M 4200 and allowed the keel bolts to be actual bolts to hold the keel on and faired so beautifully you can't find the joint even if you knew where to look. Hunter has apparently been doing this forever. And with few problems to their credit. Until you have one like mine. And so are a lot of other makers which leads me to wonder where they will be once sailing stresses take their toll on what is a butt joint to the bottom of their hulls rather than against a dedicated sump like on my boat. But feel free to share this little tidbit with friends and fellow surveyors. Even our surveyor never knew this about Hunters. I have plenty of pictures of this experience if anyone is curious about the process of dropping an epoxy bedded keel and putting it back on. The end result for us is peace of mind. Matt Click to expand...

15Knots said: Hi Matt, I am faced with what seems to be a similar problem on a 1985 Hunter 28. We are hauling it out in May 2023, so we'll be able to see what's really going on. For right now, it seems to be keel bolt leaks. But I'm not convinced. Anyway, I would love to see more photos and, hopefully, be able to pick your brain on this. Can you reach out to me at [email protected] ? Click to expand...

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