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Outer Reef vs Fleming vs Grand Banks

Discussion in ' General Trawler Discussion ' started by bclb , Dec 14, 2019 .

bclb New Member

Going to get a 55-65 footer. Like the open layout of the OR, but don't have a feel for the reliability, maintainability, durability, or seaworthiness of the OR. Fleming seems to be rock solid on those, but would like to hear comparisons. Marlow not really being considered.

BFOD New Member

My 2 cents - Fleming 55, no place in the engine room, i was in the market for a used Fleming 55 i was very impressed until I saw the engine compartment - GB outdated design unless to buy a new, in the EU used GB has no value anymore. if you need seaworthiness, go see a Nordhavn or Selene. The new Selene 60 explorer will be a game changer. I have seen a Selene 62 year 2009, this is a ship not a boat and you can´t compare with GB or Fleming

olderboater Senior Member

Outer Reef is a great seaworthy and well built boat. I would agree on Selene being good but that wasn't what you asked. Fleming, I'd prefer the 58' or 65' to the 55'. Fleming is unbeatable in terms of quality, although not typically a boat one uses trans-oceanic. I do like that you have a bit extra speed with Fleming. Grand Banks is a completely different type boat as a coastal cruiser. Unfortunately, things came mostly to a halt with them and now the line is being totally revamped and the new Grand Banks 60 is a fantastic boat but it's still a coastal boat, just now one with speed and performance.

PacBlue Senior Member

BFOD said: ↑ My 2 cents - Fleming 55, no place in the engine room, i was in the market for a used Fleming 55 i was very impressed until I saw the engine compartment - GB outdated design unless to buy a new, in the EU used GB has no value anymore. if you need seaworthiness, go see a Nordhavn or Selene. The new Selene 60 explorer will be a game changer. I have seen a Selene 62 year 2009, this is a ship not a boat and you can´t compare with GB or Fleming Click to expand...

mapism Senior Member

bclb said: ↑ would like to hear comparisons Click to expand...

seaworthiness depends on the cruising plans, and this is the first question one has to ask himself. Hours or days offshore. And for maintainability the Fleming 55 is the worst i have ever seen, simply not workable to enter the engine room at sea. This was the only reason i didn´t buy one. Fleming 55 will cruise happily at 10 knots, but yes maximum continuous is 15 knots ... for less than 20 hours. In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans.

BFOD said: ↑ In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans. Click to expand...

BFOD said: ↑ seaworthiness depends on the cruising plans, and this is the first question one has to ask himself. Hours or days offshore. And for maintainability the Fleming 55 is the worst i have ever seen, simply not workable to enter the engine room at sea. This was the only reason i didn´t buy one. Fleming 55 will cruise happily at 10 knots, but yes maximum continuous is 15 knots ... for less than 20 hours. In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans. Click to expand...

leeky Senior Member

The complaint about Fleming engine rooms is their height, or lack of it.

Engine Room Height can come with a trade off in form stability and windage in boats under 60 feet. I like the trade off as the Fleming has an appealing low profile, easy to board and get around and is easy to maneuver in a blow in close quarters.

Slimshady Senior Member

Owned a outereef 73, c 18 , boat is well built and jeff stood behind his boats. When I'm in the market for that style of boat I would buy another. She had lots of room in engine room and systems were well laid out and accessible. The Taiwanese yard builds a solid boat, with good fit and finish. Put 1100 hrs on her in 4 years with no mishaps. Hope this helps.

The complaint about Fleming engine rooms is their height, or lack of it. Click to expand...

PacBlue said: ↑ Engine Room Height can come with a trade off in form stability and windage in boats under 60 feet. I like the trade off as the Fleming has an appealing low profile, easy to board and get around and is easy to maneuver in a blow in close quarters. Click to expand...

Capt Ralph Senior Member

olderboater said: ↑ but also talk to existing and former owners. Click to expand...

bayoubud Senior Member

You might want to add the 54/62 Offshore to consider. Many like them better than the Fleming. Similar design and quality, with less exterior maintenance.

olderboater said: ↑ Fleming does work to keep the air draft on the 55' at 16'. Still, the ER height, while not tall enough for many of us to stand, is very good for a 55' boat and the walkway between the engines quite accommodating. Stabilizers were mentioned and they're fully accessible with nothing in the way. They are intentionally left open. The Outer Reef 58' is not standing height if you're over 6' tall either, with a very similar ER design. One just needs to check for themselves, but also talk to existing and former owners. Click to expand...

maldwin Senior Member

I have never met a Fleming owner who didn’t like his boat. Best, Maldwin

maldwin said: ↑ I have never met a Fleming owner who didn’t like his boat. Best, Maldwin Click to expand...

Kapn Member

BFOD said: ↑ Thx, My remark was about the maintainability and its engine room. Go inside with hot engines, …. you will burn yourself. Try to access – repair the stabilizers or genset, good luck Most Fleming owners have deep pockets, and in general maintainability it is not there problem. Click to expand...

Kapn said: ↑ Stabilizers were uncovered, unlike some motoryachts where they get hidden with cabinetry. Click to expand...

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How Fleming’s 55-Foot Cruiser Became One of the Boating World’s Most Successful Designs

The fleming 55 is in a category of one among offshore cruisers, sporting the same exterior and hull as its 1986 debut., howard walker, howard walker's most recent stories.

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Of course, there have been some modifications. While the hull, superstructure and structural layout of the interior have changed little since the original design, the interior design has constantly evolved to reflect the wish lists of the 55’s intrepid band of owners to stay in sync with contemporary fashion trends.

“It’s a lot like Porsche’s 911. The silhouette is the same but pretty much everything else has changed,” says Kevin Althoff, brand specialist with Fleming East Coast dealer Burr Yacht Sales, the world’s top Fleming seller.

Except for the interior-exterior comparison, the Fleming 55 is nothing like the Porsche 911. It was designed as a no-nonsense, long-distance cruiser that two people, typically a couple, could handle alone, without crew, with an offshore hull that could take on big seas, while also voyaging for thousands of miles on a single tank of diesel. It fueled the dreams of hundreds of intrepid cruisers who wanted to see the world on their terms.

Adding to the appeal, the 55’s semi-displacement hull from American naval architect Larry Drake has also passed the test of time. That distinctive, flared bow keeps the decks dry even in gnarly seas, while the long, deep keel not only protects the props in skinny water and helps the yacht track straight, especially in following seas.

And harking back to the Porsche 911 analogy, it’s the mechanical improvements that have helped the 55 stay modern and relevant in today’s crowded cruiser market. The latest 55s come with Cummins QSC 500-hp common-rail turbo diesels that can punch the 68,000-pound Fleming to a very un-trawler-like 21 mph.

Throttle back to a typical 11-mph cruising speed, and the efficiency of the Cummins delivers a miserly fuel burn of just 10 gallons per hour, or a gallon per mile. Ease down to 9 mph and the 55 will run for over 2,000 miles on a tank.

“It’s this duality our owners love. The ability to cruise near silently and economically at low speeds, yet if the weather takes a turn for the worst, there’s the speed to get you home fast,” says Althoff.

Inside, it’s all old-world elegance and craftsmanship, with lovely satin-varnished cabinetry and teak-and-holly floors mixed with contemporary fabrics and upholstery.

The rather narrow main salon opens out onto the roughly 250-square-foot rear deck, which is big enough for a party. At the forward end is the well-equipped U-shaped galley in the favored “galley-up” location.

The salon also comes with one of our favorite features, a dumb waiter that shuttles food and beverages to the flybridge, avoiding the need to carry everything up steps. That’s probably a one-of-a-kind feature for a 55-footer.

Below-decks, the layout is essentially unchanged from the original design. That means a long, central corridor with twin-berth cabins on either side. The rather cramped master cabin pushed up into the bow is one of the yacht’s few drawbacks.

Fleming responded to criticisms of that tight master by introducing the Fleming 58 in 2012, which could be specified with a spacious master cabin amidships across the full beam. Despite that, the 55 continues to be the brand’s best-seller.

Which proves that bigger isn’t always better. Even after 36 years of production, and a price that starts at just over $3 million, there’s still a three-year waiting list for the iconic 55.

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Model Comparison

Notes: LOA Total includes anchor platform, pulpit and swim step. Air Draft is measured from waterline to top of radar arch (does not include mast). Displacement Light is at Minimum Operating Condition

All models have 1′ of protection from keel shoe to lowest point of running gear.

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Fleming Yachts

Fleming Yachts are renowned for their durability, luxury, and long-range capabilities, attracting a discerning clientele that seeks the ultimate cruising experience. Founded by Tony Fleming , the company has cultivated a reputable standing in the marine industry, becoming synonymous with reliability and exceptional craftsmanship. These yachts are designed not only for comfort and style but also for practical, long-distance sea travel.

The lineup of Fleming Yachts showcases a range of models, each with specific technical specifications and customizable options to suit the needs of adventurous mariners. From the well-established Fleming 55, a model that has stood the test of time, to the new Fleming 85, the yachts offer various features including state-of-the-art pilot houses, luxurious accommodations, and impressive ocean-crossing range. Prices and options vary by model, reflecting the ability of the company to offer a tailor-made yachting experience.

In benchmarking Fleming Yachts against their competitors, it becomes clear that Fleming's attention to detail and commitment to quality set these boats apart. The brand has consistently delivered vessels that stand as a testament to Tony Fleming's vision and passion for the sea, leaving an indelible mark on the boating world.

Key Takeaways

• Fleming Yachts are celebrated for their high-quality construction and seaworthiness for long-range cruising.
• The brand's diverse model series and detailed customization offer options tailored to the desires of serious mariners.
• When compared to their rivals, Fleming Yachts differentiate themselves through meticulous design and a legacy of marine innovation.

Fleming Yacht Models Overview

Fleming Yachts are celebrated for their exceptional build quality, long-range capabilities, and classic design. They come in various sizes, each tailored to meet the needs of serious cruisers seeking comfort and reliability.

The Fleming 55 is a renowned vessel characterized by its timeless appeal and practical design. With a displacement of approximately 67,000 pounds, it boasts a beam of 16 feet that provides stability and spacious interiors. Its draft of 5 feet allows for versatility in different waters. The yacht is well-appointed for long journeys with a fuel capacity of 1,000 gallons and water storage at 300 gallons, supporting extended cruises with ease.

Increasing in size, the Fleming 58 offers enhanced accommodations and is fitted with three staterooms. This model has a slightly larger beam of 17 feet 6 inches and a draft of 5 feet. The design integrates additional space without compromising the yacht's renowned seakeeping abilities. It carries fuel aboard in a 1,450-gallon tank and fresh water at a capacity of 320 gallons.

The Fleming 65 steps up with even more room for equipment and comfort, maintaining the line's signature exterior elegance and interior richness. This vessel features a displacement of 114,000 pounds light and 124,000 pounds with full loads. Its generous beam stands at 18 feet 8 inches while hosting a relatively modest draft of 5 feet. It further expands its capacity with a fuel volume of 1,700 gallons and water at 400 gallons, making it ideal for long-distance cruising.

The Fleming 78 is the flagship model that defines luxury cruising, balancing opulent living spaces with top-notch marine technology. Its disp light and disp full are indicative of its voluminous build, allowing for substantial fuel and water tank sizes—at 2,500 and 440 gallons, respectively. The Fleming 78 offers a beam of 21 feet 5 inches and a draft of 5 feet 5 inches, embodying a floating sanctuary capable of global voyaging.

The latest addition to the lineup, the Fleming 85, is set to be a maritime marvel, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in a luxury cruising yacht. With an expected focus on interior and exterior finery, displacement, beam, draft, and capacity specs will likely evolve to exude unmatched sophistication and capability in line with the Fleming reputation. The yacht's accommodations will reflect the epitome of comfort for both owner and guests.

Technical Specifications

The technical specifications of Fleming Yachts highlight their engineering excellence and luxurious design philosophy. Every model boasts ample accommodations, efficient performance, and top-of-the-line systems and equipment. Detailed below are the specs of their various models, providing insights into dimensions, performance, and onboard equipment.

Dimensions and Layout

Each Fleming yacht offers a semi-displacement hull , providing both stability and efficiency at sea. The LOA (Length Overall) of these yachts includes the swim platform and anchor platform, enhancing their overall length and space. The Fleming 55 , for instance, has an LOA of approximately 61 feet including the swim platform and anchor platform, with a beam of 16 feet that contributes to an interior layout designed for comfort and functionality. Accommodations typically include multiple cabins, with a pilothouse and spacious cockpit adding to the layout's practicality.

• LOA (hull only) : Varies per model
• LOA (including swim step and anchor platform) : Varies per model
• Beam : Varies per model
• Draft : Varies per model
• Air draft : To top of radar arch
• Accommodation : Multiple cabins, saloon, and galley

Performance

Fleming Yachts are known for their impressive range and fuel capacity , allowing for extended cruises. For example, the Fleming 55 is powered by twin Cummins QSC 500 diesels that are capable of achieving a top speed of around 19 knots, with a comfortable cruise speed of 8-10 knots. This balance of speed and fuel efficiency makes them a top choice for long-distance cruising enthusiasts.

• Cruise Speed : 8-10 knots (model dependent)
• Top Speed : Up to 19 knots (model dependent)
• Fuel Capacity : Varies per model
• Range : Long-distance capabilities

Systems and Equipment

Modern Fleming Yachts come well-equipped with state-of-the-art engine controls, stabilizers, and high-capacity generators, ensuring that power and stability are never in short supply. Freshwater and black water systems are built to the highest standards, offering convenience and self-sufficiency at sea. Options like a flybridge , tender , and additional customization opportunities allow owners to tailor their yachts to their specific needs.

• Main Engines : Specific to each model
• Transmission : High-quality with varied reduction ratios
• Stabilizers : Available for improved comfort
• Fresh Water System Capacity : Varies per model
• Black Water System Capacity : Varies per model
• Generator : Standard and optional upgrades available

For exact specifications for a particular model, such as the recently outlined Fleming 55's specifications , prospective buyers should consult official documentation or visit the manufacturer's website for comprehensive details.

Design and Features

Fleming Motor Yachts are renowned for their thoughtful design and superior craftsmanship, with features that cater to both avid mariners and those who relish luxury. They are meticulously outfitted to deliver a premier yachting experience, combining traditional style with modern conveniences.

The interior of Fleming Yachts reveals a commitment to comfort and elegance. The galley is fully equipped with top-of-the-line appliances and ample storage, designed to make meal preparation a delightful experience, whether at sea or docked. The master stateroom stands out as a centerpiece of personal luxury, often featuring a queen-size bed, en suite facilities, and fine joinery work. Accommodations across the various sizes of Fleming yachts are appointed with rich materials and boast a seamless integration of functional design with aesthetically pleasing elements. The common thread across all models is a signature blend of practicality and sophistication in the living spaces.

Fleming Yachts’ exteriors are crafted with a focus on performance and usability. They often feature a sizable foredeck and an aft deck area, designed for relaxation and entertainment. Depending on the model, outdoor spaces can be either open or partially enclosed , offering protection from the elements and extending the usable space of the yacht. The yachts' profile marries the essence of a classic trawler with contemporary lines, resulting in a style that is unmistakably Fleming. Various sizes cater to a range of preferences, with some models allowing for customization to meet the unique desires of each owner.

Yachting Experience

Fleming Yachts are renowned for blending luxury with functionality, providing a yachting experience that emphasizes both on-board comfort and ease of navigation. These vessels are designed for those who seek a harmonious balance between the thrills of exploration and the peace of the open water.

On-Board Comfort

The interior of Fleming Yachts showcases meticulous craftsmanship aimed at heightened comfort and relaxation . The Fleming 85 Pilothouse Motor Yacht is an exemplar of this design philosophy, offering a range of amenities perfect for long ocean voyages. Residents will find plush accommodations in the form of elegantly designed staterooms and spacious salons. The air conditioning is climate-controlled, ensuring a pleasant environment regardless of the external weather conditions.

Navigation and Control

Fleming Yachts are equipped with the latest in navigation technology and control systems to ensure a safe and enjoyable voyage. The Fleming 85 features a sophisticated pilothouse , strategically positioned to provide excellent visibility and accessibility to all instrumentation. It's designed to facilitate easy command of the yacht with advanced electronics for precise tracking and control. Autopilot and GPS systems are standard, giving captains the confidence to tackle even the most challenging routes.

• Hydraulic Steering System : Provides smooth, responsive control.
• Radar and Sonar : Offers clear, real-time marine and weather data.
• System Monitoring : Centralized displays for engine performance and fuel management.

Unique Selling Points

Fleming Yachts are celebrated for their exceptional build quality and meticulous attention to detail . The craftsmanship is evident in every aspect, from the intricate woodwork to the robust engineering.

Each model comes equipped with Maxwell windlasses , a trusted name in anchoring systems. These state-of-the-art windlasses ensure reliable and effortless anchoring, which is crucial for confident and secure voyages.

The use of Ultra Anchors grants Fleming owners peace of mind with their superior holding power. Designed for quick setting and stability, these anchors add to Fleming's reputation for safety and performance.

Fleming Yachts are powered with precision by Glendinning EEC3 electronic engine controls , delivering responsive and smooth operation. This system allows for fine-tuning of the yacht's twin engines, enhancing the captain's control and the vessel's maneuverability.

Equipped with an Onan EQD 17kw generator , owners can depend on consistent and efficient electrical power. This feature ensures that life on board is as comfortable underway as it is at the dock, with ample power for all onboard systems.

ABT-TRAC stabilizers and bow/stern thrusters are standard on Fleming Yachts, resulting in outstanding stability and maneuverability. Whether at displacement speeds or when planing, this advanced technology provides a stable and comfortable experience for owners and guests.

Fleming Yachts stand out in the marketplace for featuring this collection of high-caliber equipment as standard, underpinning their commitment to quality and customer satisfaction.

• Pricing and Options

When examining the pricing and options of Fleming Motor Yachts, potential buyers find a range of choices that cater to luxury and customization. The investment in a Fleming yacht varies, with factors such as model, specifications, and added options influencing the final cost.

Base Prices :

• Fleming 55: Starting from approximately $1.5M
• Fleming 58: Begins around $2.2M
• Fleming 65: Estimated base is upwards of $3M
• Fleming 78: Initial pricing can exceed $4.5M

Prices are subject to change and may vary depending on the dealership, market, and time of purchase.

Options and Customization : Buyers can enhance their Fleming yacht with a multitude of options:

• Engine Upgrades : Options for more powerful engines to improve cruising capabilities.
• Navigation Systems : Advanced electronics packages for long-distance travel.
• Interior Design: Custom fabrics, materials, and layouts to meet owner preferences.

Competitors : Comparable brands in the market, such as Hatteras and Nordhavn, offer similar size ranges and customization opportunities. While the competition is strong, Fleming boasts a loyal following due to their reputation for quality and seaworthiness.

Note : The above figures are approximations and represent a general guide. Prospective owners should consult Fleming Yachts or their exclusive dealers for precise pricing and available options.

Competitor Comparison

When evaluating Fleming yachts against their competitors, it's essential to consider several industry players that stand out due to their quality, performance, and luxury. Azimut Yachts , Hatteras Yachts , and Viking Yachts are notable competitors in the luxury motor yacht market.

Azimut Yachts offers a diverse range of models, known for their Italian styling and advanced technology. They span from more compact sport cruisers to grand long-distance vessels, providing a wide range of price points and options .

Hatteras Yachts boasts a solid American heritage with a reputation for ruggedness and large, comfortable yachts. Their use of resin-infusion technology ensures a sturdy build quality comparable to that of Fleming Yachts .

Viking Yachts , primarily famous for their sportfishing boats, also offer motoryachts with luxurious accommodations and high-quality finishes. They emphasize performance and fishability, appealing to a specific segment of the market.

Fleming Yachts has positioned itself well against these competitors, focusing on sturdy construction, classic design, and long-range capabilities. Their unique selling proposition lies in their craftsmanship and seaworthiness , with a loyal following among serious cruisers who value these characteristics. While each competitor offers distinct features and focuses, Fleming remains a top choice for those who prioritize time-tested design and ocean-going reliability.

Virtual Tours and Updates

Fleming Yachts offers an engaging opportunity for potential buyers and enthusiasts to explore their impressive lineup with detailed virtual tours . Prospective clients can step aboard various models, including the Fleming 55, 58, 65, 78, and the flagship 85, all from the comfort of their home. These tours provide an intimate look at the design, craftsmanship, and spacious interiors that Fleming Yachts are known for.

Updates on the latest developments and offerings from Fleming Yachts are distributed through their email updates system. Interested parties are encouraged to subscribe to receive the latest news, which may include information on new model launches, technological advancements, hull progress, and noteworthy events across the Fleming family. This is also an ideal way for owners and fans to stay informed about the subtle intricacies and improvements made by Fleming.

The updates serve a crucial role in informing customers about price adjustments, available options, and specifications that showcase why Fleming stands out in the competitive motor yacht market. In doing so, these communications maintain a neutral tone, focusing solely on relevant information that reflects the brand's commitment to transparency and excellence.

• New Model Announcements
• Technological Enhancements
• Yachting Events and News

Competitors in the yachting industry also keep pace with similar offerings, but Fleming's dedication to customer experience and technological integration sets it apart. Whether one is considering purchasing or simply admiring from afar, these tours and updates provide a comprehensive look at what makes Fleming a leading name in luxury yachting.

Frequently Asked Questions

This section aims to answer common queries about Fleming Yachts, touching on topics like specifications, pricing, owner feedback, legal matters, competition comparison, and performance.

What are the standard specifications and available options for the latest Fleming Yacht models?

The latest Fleming Yacht models come with a range of specifications, including various engine options and amenities designed for luxury cruising. Customers can choose from models like the Fleming 55, Fleming 65, and the new Fleming 85, with available options to customize electronics, interior finishes, and navigational equipment.

How does Fleming's pricing structure vary between different models and configurations?

Fleming Yachts' pricing structure reflects the luxury market segment they occupy, with larger and more equipped models like the Fleming 85 naturally commanding a higher price. The cost varies based on the model's size, configurations, and selected options, such as the choice between an open flybridge and an enclosed bridge version.

What are some common issues reported by owners of Fleming Yachts?

Reports from Fleming owners indicate high satisfaction, and when issues arise, they tend to be minor and connected to routine maintenance or wear and tear. The yachts are respected for their robust construction and craftsmanship, which minimizes common problems.

What legal actions have been taken against Fleming Yachts, and what were they concerning?

There is no publicly available information suggesting significant legal actions taken against Fleming Yachts up to the knowledge cutoff date.

How do competitor yachts compare to Fleming models in terms of specifications and pricing?

Competing brands offering similar luxury cruising yachts often have comparable specifications and pricing. However, Fleming Yachts are renowned for their meticulous engineering, classic design, and long-range capabilities, which they balance against the competition's varying focus areas such as speed, technology, or innovative design features.

What are the performance capabilities, such as cruising and top speed, of the most popular Fleming Yacht models?

The performance of Fleming Yachts, such as cruising speed and top speed, is engineered for optimal long-range cruising. The Fleming 78 , for example, offers considerable range at displacement speed and is capable of higher speeds when required, accommodating both leisurely and faster-paced voyages.

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• By Chris Caswell
• Updated: October 4, 2007

“I’m not in this business to build an empire,” protests Tony Fleming, with a wry smile. And yet, with 189 of his Fleming 55 trawler yachts sold since production began just 20 years ago, the numbers belie his modesty.

After the overwhelming acceptance of its first offering, Fleming Yachts brought out a 75-footer that has proven to be equally popular. But the boatbuilder also discovered that a 20-foot jump in size was a bit much for some owners. To fill that gap, the Fleming 65 was born.

While the earlier two boats were designed by Larry Drake with styling by Tony Fleming, the 65 is a Doug Sharp design with entirely new hull lines. It still has the long keel of the other Flemings, but the 65 flattens aft for improved speed and stability, while prop pockets keep the draft to just five feet for island cruising. On a windy and rough trip down the Pacific Coast, the first 65 hit 20 knots while surfing some of the big seas. That was far beyond her 11-knot cruising speed, yet she tracked straight with fingertip control on the wheel.

Upping the length from 55 feet to 65 provides far more than just a few dimes’ worth of difference: The beam increases by more than two feet and the displacement soars from around 66,000 pounds to 108,000 pounds. Most important, however, is how the interior volume increases geometrically to create a spacious three-stateroom layout with liveaboard space.

From the outside, the new 65 won’t disappoint Fleming aficionados, who will see at a glance that the styling cues haven’t been lost in the designer transition. The boat still looks long and lean on the water, mostly because the foredeck is surrounded by teak-capped rails rather than the solid raised bulwarks that give some trawlers a bluff-bowed appearance. Here the Portuguese bridge remains forward of the pilothouse, while the wide side decks are protected by the overhang of the bridge (good for sun protection in the tropics as well as from rain in northern climes). The sheerline curves sweetly from bow to stern.

Inside, the design brief was for more comfort, sensibly achieved. Rather than trying to shoehorn in additional cabins, the three staterooms have been enlarged to the size of those on much larger yachts. A day head is in the pilothouse. The owner’s cabin is forward, with a queen-sized berth that hinges up on gas lifts to reveal a king-sized storage bin underneath. Two hanging lockers have real-world dimensions so that clothing actually hangs on the hangers rather than simply being wedged in vertically; ample drawers create bureaus for smaller clothing-room enough for a major clothes horse.

Distinguishing the 65, as with other Flemings, are the clever solutions to problems often overlooked or simply swept under the table by other builders. Because the Fleming 65 will be offered in Europe, it must meet CE safety requirements that emergency exits be nearby in each stateroom. To solve the problem, Tony Fleming devised the lighted ceiling treatment in the owner’s stateroom so that it hinges down to reveal not only a deck hatch, but a fold-out ladder as well.

The master head is comfortably sized and has a large stall shower with a Corian deck grating and Headhunter pressure-jet toilets, which are standard throughout.

The port guest cabin has twin berths (a queen is optional), plus a Pullman fold-down on the inboard bulkhead and a stretcher-bar berth over the outboard berth. Across the companionway is the guest head with another large shower, with a seat for added functionality.

Several arrangements are available for the starboard cabin, but our 65 had one that Tony believes is likely to be the most popular: a pair of criss-crossed upper/lower berths. The lower berth can be used as a settee, and there’s a desk on the forward bulkhead large enough to serve as an onboard office complete with computer.

The real living areas on the Fleming 65 are likely to be the saloon and pilothouse. Though separated by the galley bulkhead, these seem to flow into one large space. The saloon has a settee to starboard with a table that unfolds to become a dining table. A pair of Tony Fleming-designed swivel bucket chairs also serve as table seating, and a pair of Fleming-designed hassocks conceal large storage bins as well. A 37-inch Sharp Aquos TV pops up on an Inca swivel lift from a cabinet in the after corner, while a wet bar with a fridge is to port.

Our test boat was hull #1; it was being kept by Fleming as a demonstrator and to allow the company to try out new systems and equipment. In the galley, which fills the forward end of the saloon, is an unusual Brandt four-burner induction cooktop. Not only does it heat without heat (you can put your hand on the burners!) for safety at sea, but it also works very quickly: A pot of cold water boils in under two minutes.

The pilothouse is likely to be the gathering spot while underway, with a curved settee to port, a custom pedestal chair behind the helm, and an expanse of black dashboard that would be a challenge to fill with electronics. With big windows, the visibility is superb, but late-afternoon sun glare can be an issue. The solution is a set of pull-down blinds to shade the crew while imparting a 1940s film noir touch to the proceedings.

The large day head to starboard is a welcome addition, and future 65s will have a wet locker for foul-weather gear as well, since the crew will be coming and going in all conditions through the two sliding doors on each side of the pilothouse. Another thoughtful inclusion is the chart table built into the starboard side of the dashboard, since savvy skippers still use paper charts to back up their occasionally fallible chart plotters. There also are drawers to handle those charts underneath.

The flying bridge is just steps from the pilothouse, with a raised platform for the port-side helm to give the skipper a clear view of the bow. Just aft of the helm is a built-in barbecue with an undercounter fridge, and a huge Glacier freezer that will handle the frozen food for weeks of cruising. To starboard is a comfortable J-shaped settee. A Bimini top that uses a hinged fiberglass radar arch as a primary support, as well as for storage, protects the entire area.

Aft, the boat deck is as solid as a concrete sidewalk, and easily holds a 14-foot Zodiac tender on fore-and-aft fiberglass ribs. Key to this rigidity are the cradles, which are really aluminum weldments molded into the deck to create sturdy cantilevers that support the tender. A 1,500-pound Steelhead crane launches both tender and watertoys.

Standard power is a pair of Cummins QSM11 660 hp diesels (CATS to 1,000 hp are available options) in a spacious engineroom that has nearly full headroom, thanks to the clever use of space in the wide bilge area of the keel. Full-beam fiberglass tanks plus a pair of auxiliary tanks store 1,700 gallons of fuel, and a tidy manifold system allows for fuel transfer. With long-range roaming in mind, this 65 has a Sepa fuel polisher as well.

The standard Fleming 65 has an Onan 21.5kW genset, but Tony Fleming decided to tinker a bit with our test boat since he likes quiet while at anchor. A Mastervolt system of four 2,500w inverters plus banks of 1,100-amp-hour batteries provide silent power for the majority of the systems. Most unusual, however, is the Sterling external combustion generator, which provides AC power at the sound level of a sewing machine. External combustion engines, which were used on the space shuttle, are too complicated to explain here (go to www.howstuffworks.com), but make perfect sense in this usage.

Underway, the Fleming 65 was a delight. We topped out at nearly 17 knots, but 1,600 rpm give somewhere around 11.5 knots, a comfortable ride in most seas, and long-legged range. With bow and stern Sidepower thrusters, she was much more nimble in close quarters than you’d expect from her fiftyish tons, but all that weight and her hull shape give her a comfortable motion at sea, too.

Tony Fleming may say he has no plans for an empire but, with the Fleming 65 already sold out through 2009, his fans may build one for him.

Contact: Fleming Yachts, (949) 723-4225; www.flemingyachts.com

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Christopher friesen, beth and dave o'connor - bellingham, w.a. | beneteau 36.7 owners.

We recently purchased our Beneteau 36.7 with the assistance of Brad Marchant.  Due to the COVID-19 situation, we were unable to view the boat prior to purchasing it.  

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Having decided after 30 years of sailing to change to power, the wide choice of brands made the selection task a daunting one. We wanted the most reliable, comfortable, safest, practical and best thought out boat that we could find. Attention to detail and quality was paramount, as was after purchase servicing. She also had to be an attractive boat that we could be proud of. After several months of extensive research, one name easily made it to the top.

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music is a journey

Fleming and Hvorostovsky in Moscow (2006)

American soprano Renée Fleming and Russian baritone Dmitri Hvorostovsky concert in Moscow, 2006. It was the first concert of the “Hvorostovsky and Friends” concert series. State Chamber Orchestra of Russia conducted by Constantine Orbelian.

Fleming and Hvorostovsky in Moscow, Programme

• Georges Bizet – Overture to the opera “ Carmen “
• Georges Bizet – Escamillo Couplets (Toreador Song) from the opera “Carmen”
• Giuseppe Verdi – Violetta and Germont duet from the opera “La Traviata”
• Giuseppe Verdi – Aria Count di Luna from the opera “Il Trovatore”
• Jules Massenet – Herod’s aria from the opera “Hérodiade”
• Richard Strauss – “Cäcilie” from the cycle of four songs for voice and piano
• Erich Wolfgang Korngold – Marietta Aria from the opera “The Dead City”
• Modest Petrovich Mussorgsky – Shaklovity aria from the opera “Khovanshchina”
• Alexander Borodin – Prince Igor ‘s aria from the opera “Prince Igor”
• Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky – The final scene from the opera “Eugene Onegin”
• Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – Duet from the opera “Don Giovanni”
• George Gershwin – Lullaby (Summertime) from “Porgy and Bess”
• Franz Lehár – Duet from the operetta “The Merry Widow”

Related: Casta Diva, Renée Fleming and Maria Callas versions

Lyrics (Texts)

Georges bizet: escamillo couplets (toreador song) from the opera “carmen”.

Carmen was first performed at the Opéra-Comique in Paris, on 3 March 1875. The libretto was written by Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halévy. At first, it was not particularly successful. Unfortunately, the French composer Georges Bizet died just three months later, on 3 June 1875, and couldn’t see the opera’s later celebrity.

Carmen initially gained its reputation through a series of productions outside France, and was not revived in Paris until 1883; thereafter it rapidly acquired celebrity at home and abroad, and continues to be one of the most frequently performed operas; the “ Habanera ” from act 1 and the “Toreador Song” from act 2 are among the best known of all operatic arias.

The Toreador Song is the popular name for the aria “Votre toast, je peux vous le rendre” from the opera Carmen, composed by Georges Bizet to a libretto by Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halévy. It is sung by the bullfighter Escamillo as he enters in act 2 (toréador is an old Spanish term for “bullfighter”) and describes various situations in the bullring, the cheering of the crowds, and the fame that comes with victory.

Votre toast, je peux vous le rendre, Señors, señors car avec les soldats oui, les toréros, peuvent s’entendre; Pour plaisirs, pour plaisirs, ils ont les combats!

Le cirque est plein, c’est jour de fête! Le cirque est plein du haut en bas; Les spectateurs, perdent la tête, Les spectateurs s’interpellent À grand fracas!

Apostrophes, cris et tapage Poussés jusques à la fureur! Car c’est la fête du courage! C’est la fête des gens de cœur! Allons! en garde! Allons! allons! Ah!

(Refrain x2) Toréador, en garde! Toréador! Toréador! Et songe bien, oui, songe en combattant Qu’un œil noir te regarde, Et que l’amour t’attend, Toréador, l’amour, l’amour t’attend!

Tout d’un coup, on fait silence, On fait silence… ah! que se passe-t-il ? Plus de cris, c’est l’instant! Plus de cris, c’est l’instant!

Le taureau s’élance en bondissant hors du toril! Il s’élance! Il entre, il frappe!… un cheval roule, entraînant un picador, “Ah! Bravo! Toro!” hurle la foule, le taureau va… il vient… il vient et frappe encore!

En secouant ses banderilles, plein de fureur, il court! Le cirque est plein de sang! On se sauve… on franchit les grilles! C’est ton tour maintenant! Allons! en garde! allons! allons! Ah!

L’amour! L’amour! L’amour! Toréador, Toréador, Toreador!

English translation

Your toast, I can give it back to you, Señores, Señores,because with soldiers yes, toreros can get along; For the pleasures, for the pleasure they fight!

The circus is full, it is a celebrating day! The circus is full from top to the ground; The crowd goes mad, the crowd is arguing with a great deal!

Apostrophes, shouts, and noises Push to the breaking point! Because it is the celebration of courage! It is the celebration of the braves of heart! Let’s go! On guard! Let’s go! Let’s go!Ah!

(Chorus x2) Toreador, on guard! Toreador! Toreador! And think well, yes think as you are fighting that a dark eye is watching you, and that love is waiting for you, Toreador, love, love is waiting for you!

All at once, we are silent, we are silent,… Oh, what is happening? No more shouts, this is it! No more shouts, this is it!

The bull is rushing while jumping out of its fence! He is rushing in! He’s entering, hitting! A horse is falling, Dragging down a picador. “Ah! Bravo! Toro!” the crowd is calling, The bull goes on… he comes… he comes, hitting once more!

While shaking his banderillas, full of rage, he runs!… the circus is full of blood! We flee… we pass the gates! It’s your turn now! Let’s go! On guard! Let’s go! Let’s go! Ah!

Love! Love! Love! Toreador, Toreador, Toreador!

Related: Dmitri Hvorostovsky sings Ochi Chyornye (Dark Eyes)

Giuseppe Verdi: Violetta and Germont duet from the opera “La Traviata”

La Traviata is an opera in three acts by Giuseppe Verdi set to an Italian libretto by Francesco Maria Piave. It is based on La dame aux Camélias (1852), a play adapted from the novel by Alexandre Dumas. The opera was originally entitled Violetta, after the main character. It was first performed on 6 March 1853 at the La Fenice opera house in Venice.

Madamigella Valéry? (Atto II duetto, Violetta/Germont)

GERMONT Madamigella Valéry?

VIOLETTA Son io.

GERMONT D’Alfredo il padre in me vedete!

VIOLETTA (sorpresa, l’invita a sedersi) Voi!

GERMONT Sì, dell’incauto, che a ruina corre, ammaliato da voi.

VIOLETTA (risentita, alzandosi) Donna son io, signore, ed in mia casa; ch’io vi lasci assentite più per voi che per me. (Sta per uscire.)

GERMONT (Quai modi!) Pure –

VIOLETTA Tratto in error voi foste.

GERMONT De’ suoi beni egli dono vuol farvi.

VIOLETTA Non l’osò finora – rifiuterei.

GERMONT (guardando intorno) Pur tanto lusso –

VIOLETTA A tutti è mistero quest’atto. A voi nol sia. (Gli dà una carta.)

GERMONT (Germont scorre le carte.) Ciel! Che discopro! D’ogni vostro avere or volete spogliarvi? Ah, il passato, perché v’accusa?

VIOLETTA Più non esiste – or amo Alfredo, e Dio lo cancellò col pentimento mio.

GERMONT Nobili sensi invero!

VIOLETTA Oh, come dolce mi suona il vostro accento!

GERMONT Ed a tai sensi un sacrifizio chieggo –

VIOLETTA (alzandosi) Ah, no, tacete – terribil cosa chiedereste certo. Il previdi – v’attesi – era felice troppo.

GERMONT D’Alfredo il padre la sorte, l’avvenir domanda or qui de’ suoi due figli.

VIOLETTA Di due figli!

GERMONT Sì! Pura siccome un angelo Iddio mi diè una figlia; se Alfredo nega riedere in seno alla famiglia, l’amato e amante giovine cui sposa andar dovea, or si ricusa al vincolo che lieti ne rendeva. Deh, non mutate in triboli le rose dell’amor. A’ prieghi miei resistere no, no non voglia il vostro cor.

VIOLETTA Ah, comprendo – dovrò per alcun tempo da Alfredo allontanarmi – doloroso fora per me – pur –

GERMONT Non è ciò che chiedo.

VIOLETTA Cielo, che più cercate? Offersi assai!

GERMONT Pur non basta.

VIOLETTA Volete che per sempre a lui rinunzi?

GERMONT È d’uopo!

VIOLETTA Ah no! – giammai! No, no! Non sapete quale affetto vivo, immenso m’arda in petto? Che né amici, né parenti io non conto tra’ viventi? E che Alfredo m’ha giurato che in lui tutto troverò? Non sapete che colpita d’atro morbo è la mia vita? Che già presso il fine vedo? Ch’io mi separi da Alfredo!

Ah, il supplizio è sì spietato, che a morir preferirò.

GERMONT È grave il sacrifizio, ma pur tranquilla uditemi, bella voi siete e giovine – col tempo –

VIOLETTA Ah, più non dite – v’intendo – m’è impossibile. Lui solo amar vogl’io.

GERMONT Sia pure – ma volubile sovente è l’uom –

VIOLETTA Gran Dio!

GERMONT Un dì, quando le veneri il tempo avrà fugate, fia presto il tedio a sorgere – che sarà allor? Pensate – per voi non avran balsamo i più soavi affetti, poiché dal ciel non furono tai nodi benedetti.

VIOLETTA È vero! È vero!

GERMONT Ah, dunque sperdasi tal sogno seduttore.

GERMONT Siate di mia famiglia l’angel consolatore Violetta, deh, pensateci, ne siete in tempo ancor. È Dio che ispira, o giovine, tai detti a un genitor.

VIOLETTA Così alla misera ch’è un dì caduta, di più risorgere speranza è muta! Se pur benefico le indulga Iddio, l’uomo implacabil per lei sarà.

GERMONT Siate di mia famiglia l’angiol consolator.

VIOLETTA (poi, piangendo, a Germont) Ah! dite alla giovine sì bella e pura ch’avvi una vittima della sventura, cui resta un unico raggio di bene – che a lei il sacrifica e che morrà!

GERMONT Piangi, piangi, o misera, supremo, il veggo, è il sacrifizio che ora ti chieggo. Sento nell’anima già le tue pene; coraggio e il nobile tuo cor vincerà!

VIOLETTA Dite alla giovine sì bella e pura ch’avvi una vittima della sventura, cui resta un unico raggio di bene che a lei il sacrifica e che morrà!

GERMONT Ah supremo, il veggo, è il sacrificio ch’ora ti chieggo. Sento nell’anima già le tue pene; coraggio e il nobile cor vincerà! Piangi, o misera!

VIOLETTA Imponete.

GERMONT Non amarlo ditegli.

VIOLETTA Nol crederà.

GERMONT Partite.

VIOLETTA Seguirammi.

GERMONT Allor –

VIOLETTA Qual figlia m’abbracciate, forte così sarò. (S’abbracciano.)

Tra breve ei vi fia reso. Ma afflitto oltre ogni dire. (indicandogli il giardino) A suo conforto di colà volerete. (Violetta va a scrivere.)

GERMONT Che pensate?

VIOLETTA Sapendo, v’opporreste al pensier mio.

GERMONT Generosa! E per voi che far poss’io? O generosa!

VIOLETTA (tornando a lui) Morrò! La mia memoria non fia ch’ei maledica, se le mie pene orribili vi sia chi almen gli dica.

GERMONT No, generosa, vivere, e lieta voi dovrete; mercè di queste lagrime dal cielo un giorno avrete.

VIOLETTA Conosca il sacrifizio ch’io consumai d’amore – che sarà suo fin l’ultimo sospiro del mio cor.

GERMONT Premiato il sacrifizio sarà del vostro core; d’un’opra così nobile sarete fiera allor. Sì, sì –

GERMONT Sarete fiera allor. D’un’opra così nobile sarete fiera allor. Premiato il sacrifizio sarà del vostro cor; d’un’opra così nobil sarete fiera allor.

VIOLETTA Qui giunge alcun! Partite!

GERMONT Oh, grato v’è il cor mio!

VIOLETTA Partite! Non ci vedrem più forse – (S’abbracciano.)

VIOLETTA, GERMONT Siate felice!

VIOLETTA Addio!

GERMONT Addio!

VIOLETTA Conosca il sacrifizio…

GERMONT Sì!

VIOLETTA …ch’io consumai d’amore – che sarà suo fin l’ultimo… Addio!

VIOLETTA che sarà suo fin l’ultimo… Addio!

VIOLETTA, GERMONT Felice siate, addio! (Germont esce per la porta del giardino.)

VIOLETTA Dammi tu forza, o cielo! (Siede e scrive.)

Mademoiselle Valéry? (Act II Duet, Violetta/Germont)

GERMONT Mademoiselle Valéry?

VIOLETTA You seek to find me?

GERMONT You see here Alfredo’s father!

VIOLETTA (surprised, she invites him to sit down) You!

GERMONT Yes, he of the imprudent youngster, who runs to ruin, captivated by you.

Violetta (resentful, getting up) I am a lady, sir, and you are in my house; that I leave, please accept that it’s more for your sake than mine. (Starts to leave.)

GERMONT (What ways!) The matter is –

VIOLETTA I think you were getting things a little wrong.

GERMONT He would endow you with all his worldly goods.

VIOLETTA He has not so far ventured – I’d refuse.

GERMONT (looking around) Despite all this luxury –

VIOLETTA No one knows the content of this. To you, it will be no secret. (Gives him a card.)

GERMONT (Germont skims through the document.) Heaven! What a revelation! You want to sell off all your possessions. Ah, the past, why does it always catch up with you?

VIOLETTA It no longer exists – now I love Alfredo, and God erased it with my repentance.

GERMONT Noble sentiments indeed!

VIOLETTA Oh, how sweet you make it sound!

GERMONT And it’s of such sentiment that I ask a sacrifice –

Violetta (getting up) Ah, no, please don’t ask it – it’s for sure something terrible. I foresaw it – I’ve been expecting you – I was too happy.

GERMONT The father of Alfredo now asks regarding the fate, the future, of his two children.

VIOLETTA Of two children!

GERMONT Yes! Pure as an angel, God gave me a daughter; if Alfredo declines to return to the bosom of his family, the loved and loving young man, whose bride she was to be, will now revoke his proposal that made her so happy. Oh, please do not turn to affliction the roses of love. May your heart not desire to turn aside my prayers.

VIOLETTA Oh, so what you ask – I’m to stay away from Alfredo for a while – a great sad void for me – just –

GERMONT That is not what I am asking.

VIOLETTA God, what more can you be asking? I’m already offering a lot!

GERMONT Only, it’s not enough.

VIOLETTA You want me to part from him for good?

GERMONT That is what is necessary!

VIOLETTA Ah, no! – never! No, no! You don’t know what an immense, burning affection lives within my soul? That neither friends, nor relatives, can I now count on? And that Alfredo has sworn to me that I will find everything in him? You don’t know how my life is struck by a dark disease? That already I see myself near my end? That I should leave Alfredo!

Ah, faced with such lack of mercy, I’d rather die.

GERMONT It’s a very great sacrifice, but please hear me out calmly, you are beautiful and young – with time –

VIOLETTA Ah, stop there – I understand – but I can’t. I want to love him and him alone.

GERMONT As that may be – but man is often fickle –

VIOLETTA Oh, dear God!

GERMONT One day, when your looks time will have withered, tedium will soon set in – what will be then? Think – for you, they will have no balm, those sweetest affections, for they were not from heaven, those blessed knots.

VIOLETTA It’s true! It’s true!

GERMONT Ah, then such a seductive dream is lost.

GERMONT Be of my family the consoling angel, Violetta, prithee, think about it, you still have time. It is God who prompts, Mademoiselle, a parent to say such things.

VIOLETTA So it is then, that for the wretch who falls one day, all hope of re-arising is suppressed! If God indulges her with beneficence, man, however, will be implacable towards her.

GERMONT Be of my family the consoling angel.

VIOLETTA (then, crying, to Germont) Ah! tell the young girl, so beautiful and pure, that she sends on her way a victim of misfortune, for whom remains but one strand of good – who will sacrifice it for her and who is going to die!

GERMONT Weep, weep, oh wretched one, supreme, I see, is the sacrifice that I’m now asking of you. In my heart, I can already feel your pain; courage and your noble heart will find victory!

VIOLETTA Tell the young girl, so beautiful and pure, that she sends on her way a victim of misfortune, for whom remains but one strand of good – who will sacrifice it for her and who is going to die!

GERMONT Ah supreme, I see, is the sacrifice that I’m now asking of you. In my heart, I can already feel your pain; courage and your noble heart will win! Weep, oh wretched one!

VIOLETTA What am I to do?

GERMONT Tell him you don’t love him.

VIOLETTA He won’t believe it.

GERMONT Leave.

VIOLETTA He’ll come after me.

GERMONT Well –

VIOLETTA Embrace me as a daughter, so that I may be strong. (They embrace.)

He will be returned to you shortly. But afflicted beyond words. (pointing to the garden) For your comfort, he will fly from there. (Violetta starts to write.)

GERMONT What are you thinking of?

VIOLETTA If you knew my thoughts, you would oppose me.

GERMONT Generous woman! And what can I do for you? Oh, one so generous!

VIOLETTA (returning to him) I’m going to die! It will not be that he curses my memory if of my terrible pains there is one who at least tells him.

GERMONT No, dear generous lady, you must live and be happy; Mercy from these tears will one day be granted you by heaven.

VIOLETTA That he knows the sacrifice that I made of the love – that which I had for him, will be his to the last sigh of my heart.

GERMONT Your heart will recognize the sacrifice you are making; of such a noble act, you will be proud. Yes, yes –

GERMONT You will be proud. Of such a noble act, you will be proud. Your heart will recognize the sacrifice you are making; of such a noble act, you will be proud.

VIOLETTA No one is to see us here! Go!

GERMONT Oh, my heart is grateful to you!

VIOLETTA Go! We may never see each other again – (They embrace.)

VIOLETTA, GERMONT Be happy!

VIOLETTA Goodbye!

GERMONT Goodbye!

VIOLETTA That he knows the sacrifice…

GERMONT Indeed!

VIOLETTA …that I made of the love – that which I had for him, will be his to the last… Goodbye!

VIOLETTA that which I had for him, will be his to the last… Goodbye!

VIOLETTA, GERMONT Be happy, goodbye! (Germont goes out through the garden door.)

VIOLETTA Give me strength, oh Lord! (Sits and writes.)

Related: Hvorostovsky sings “Do not awaken memories” [Bulakhov]

Giuseppe Verdi: Aria Count di Luna from the opera “Il Trovatore”

Il trovatore (The Troubadour) is an opera in four acts by Giuseppe Verdi to an Italian libretto largely written by Salvadore Cammarano, based on the play El trovador (1836) by Antonio García Gutiérrez.

Jules Massenet: Herod’s aria from the opera “Hérodiade”

Hérodiade is an opera in four acts by Jules Massenet to a French libretto by Paul Milliet and Henri Grémont, based on the novella Hérodias (1877) by Gustave Flaubert. It was first performed at the Théâtre de la Monnaie in Brussels on 19 December 1881. The libretto is a retelling of the story of John the Baptist, Salome, Herod Antipas, and Herodias (a princess of the Herodian Dynasty of Judaea during the time of the Roman Empire).

Richard Strauss: “Cäcilie” from the cycle of four songs for voice and piano

Cäcilie, Op. 27 No. 2, is the second in a set of four songs composed by Richard Strauss in 1894. The words are from a love poem “Cäcilie” written by Heinrich Hart (1855-1906), a German dramatic critic and journalist who also wrote poetry. It was written for the poet’s wife Cäcilie.

Wenn du es wüßtest, Was träumen heißt von brennenden Küssen, Von Wandern und Ruhen mit der Geliebten, Aug in Auge, Und kosend und plaudernd, Wenn du es wüßtest, Du neigtest dein Herz !

Wenn du es wüßtest, Was bangen heißt in einsamen Nächten, Um schauert vom Sturm, da niemand tröstet Milden Mundes die kampfmüde Seele, Wenn du es wüßtest, Du kämest zu mir.

Wenn du es wüßtest, Was leben heißt, umhaucht von der Gottheit Weltschaffendem Atem, Zu schweben empor, lichtgetragen, Zu seligen Höhn, Wenn du es wüßtest, wenn du es wüßtest, Du lebtest mit mir.

If you but knew, sweet, what ’tis to dream of fond, burning kisses, of wandering and resting with the belov’d one; gazing fondly caressing and chatting, could I but tell you, your heart would assent.

If you but knew, sweet, the anguish of waking thro’ nights long and lonely and rocked by the storm when no one is near to soothe and comfort the strife-weary spirit. Could I but tell you, you’d come, sweet, to me.

If you but knew, sweet, what living is, in the creative breath of God, Lord, and Maker to hover, upborne on dove-like pinions to regions of light, if you but knew it, could I but tell you, you’d dwell, sweet, with me.

Erich Wolfgang Korngold: Marietta Aria from the opera “The Dead City”

Die tote Stadt (German for The Dead City) is an opera in three acts by Erich Wolfgang Korngold to a libretto by Paul Schott, a collective pseudonym for the composer and his father, Julius Korngold; it is based on the 1892 novel Bruges-la-Morte by Georges Rodenbach.

Related: Moscow Nights – Anna Netrebko & Dmitri Hvorostovsky

Alexander Borodin: Prince Igor’s aria from the opera “Prince Igor”

Prince Igor is an opera in four acts with a prologue, written and composed by Alexander Borodin. The composer adapted the libretto from the Ancient Russian epic The Lay of Igor’s Host, which recounts the campaign of Rus prince Igor Svyatoslavich against the invading Cuman (“Polovtsian”) tribes in 1185.

He also incorporated material drawn from two medieval Kievan chronicles. The opera was left unfinished upon the composer’s death in 1887 and was edited and completed by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov and Alexander Glazunov. It was first performed in St. Petersburg, Russia, in 1890.

Related: Fleming and Domingo perform Love Duet from Act I of Verdi’s Otello

Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky: The final scene from the opera “Eugene Onegin”

Eugene Onegin, Op. 24 is an opera (“lyrical scenes”) in 3 acts (7 scenes), composed by Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. The libretto, organized by the composer and Konstantin Shilovsky, very closely follows certain passages in Alexander Pushkin’s novel in verse, retaining much of his poetry.

Shilovsky contributed M. Triquet’s verses in Act 2, Scene 1, while Tchaikovsky wrote the words for Lensky’s arioso in Act 1, Scene 1, and almost all of Prince Gremin’s aria in Act 3, Scene 1. Eugene Onegin is a well-known example of lyric opera, to which Tchaikovsky added music of a dramatic nature.

The story concerns a selfish hero who lives to regret his blasé rejection of a young woman’s love and his careless incitement of a fatal duel with his best friend. The opera was first performed in Moscow in 1879.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Duet from the opera “Don Giovanni”

Don Giovanni (K. 527; complete title: Il dissoluto punito, ossia il Don Giovanni, literally The Rake Punished, or Don Giovanni) is an opera in two acts with music by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and an Italian libretto by Lorenzo Da Ponte. It is based on the legends of Don Juan, a fictional libertine and seducer.

The opera was premiered by the Prague Italian opera at the Teatro di Praga (now called the Estates Theatre) on October 29, 1787. Da Ponte’s libretto was billed, like many of its time, as dramma giocoso , a term that denotes a mixing of serious and comic action. Mozart entered the work into his catalog as an opera buffa (a genre of opera. It was first used as an informal description of Italian comic operas). Although sometimes classified as comic, it blends comedy, melodrama, and supernatural elements.

George Gershwin: Lullaby (Summertime) from “Porgy and Bess”

“Summertime” is an aria composed by George Gershwin for the 1935 opera Porgy and Bess. The lyrics are by DuBose Heyward, the author of the novel Porgy on which the opera was based, although the song is also co-credited to Ira Gershwin by ASCAP (American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers).

Summertime lyrics (Gershwin)

Summertime, And the livin’ is easy Fish are jumpin’ And the cotton is high

Your daddy’s rich And your mamma’s good lookin’ So hush little baby Don’t you cry

One of these mornings You’re going to rise up singing Then you’ll spread your wings And you’ll take to the sky

But till that morning There’s a’nothing can harm you With daddy and mamma standing by

Franz Lehár: Duet from the operetta “The Merry Widow”

The Merry Widow (German: Die lustige Witwe) is an operetta by the Austro-Hungarian composer Franz Lehár. The librettists, Viktor Léon and Leo Stein, based the story – concerning a rich widow, and her countrymen’s attempt to keep her money in the principality by finding her the right husband – on an 1861 comedy play, L’attaché d’ambassade (The Embassy Attaché) by Henri Meilhac.

• Toreador Song on Wikipedia
• La traviata on Wikipedia
• Hérodiade on Wikipedia
• Cäcilie (Strauss) on Wikipedia
• Die tote Stadt on Wikipedia
• Khovanshchina on Wikipedia
• Prince Igor on Wikipedia
• Eugene Onegin (opera) on Wikipedia
• Violetta and Germont duet lyrics on the Lyrics Translate website
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The European Right is spurning Moscow Putin has lost his old admirers

Moldovan citizens protest to join the EU last year. Diego Herrera Carcedo/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images.

June 17, 2024   4 mins

In the lead-up to the European elections, the Kremlin poured vast amounts of resources into attempting to tilt the results in favour of far-Right, pro-Russian politicians. All the familiar tactics were seen in the wild. Moscow hardly bothers to cover its tracks any longer: viral stories on TikTok and Instagram pumped out lurid claims about the opposition, hackers caused disruption, and, behind the scenes, Russian agents were hard at work within NGOs and political structures across the continent. 

At first glance, Vladimir Putin seems to have won an enormous victory. Sympathetic far-Right parties, including openly neo-fascist outfits in Slovakia and Bulgaria, won seats across Central and Eastern Europe. Marine Le Pen’s Rassemblement National performed so well — clocking 31.5% of the vote in France — that Emmanuel Macron was moved to call a national election in response. 

Russian politicians have been cock-a-hoop, declaring with confidence that the parliamentary results are a turning point in a broader war against the West. On X, an increasingly combative Dmitry Medvedev declared in his broken English that the results “come as a reflection of your inept policy of providing support to the bandera authorities in the f. Ukraine at the cost of your own citizens, your idiotic economic and migration policy!” A swathe of Russian media pundits followed his lead, proclaiming that the electoral results would lead to a definitive weakening in support for Kyiv and that “Russian culture and traditions are gaining more and more recognition in the West”. 

These leading commentators are assuring a Russian public, struggling with the economic and human costs of the country’s war against Ukraine, that a long-promised goal — one enshrined in official doctrine for close to two decades — is about to be realised: the creation of a “multipolar world” led by Moscow, and the rebuilding of a lost empire. 

Putin's ruthless new plan to win

By Ian Garner

Depicting Europe as the antithesis of Russian values, power and success has been central to selling this project to the Russian population. Indeed, it was the pro-Russian Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych’s decision to reject an EU Association Agreement in 2013 that led to the Maidan Revolution in Kyiv. In turn, Putin in large part decided to invade a few months later as Ukraine looked to be rejecting Russia in favour of Europe.

Thus the suggestion that Europe is about to be broken for good not only invokes the collapse of the EU; it also implies Russia’s inexorable rise, the recreation of an empire with Moscow at its heart, and the recompense for two years of bitter suffering in Ukraine.

Yet is the situation as promising as Medvedev and his ilk claim? Despite the successes of the European far-Right, it is hard to imagine that 2024 will be a major turning point in Moscow’s relationship with Europe, or that the European Union’s old guard is on its knees. Indeed, it may yet transpire that 2024’s elections will see a new pact between the centre-right and the Left that could tilt both Moldova and Ukraine — each a traditional part of Russia’s imagined sphere of influence — even further toward Brussels.

For all the headlines about far-Right successes, the most openly pro-Russian politicians struggled at the polls. The pro-Russian Latvia MEP Tatjana Ždanoka, who announced her “retirement” in February after allegations of spying for Russia were made public, saw her party fail to regain its single seat. Vocal pro-Russian Left-wingers such as the Dubliner Clare Daly, who was publicly backed by liberal celebrities including Susan Sarandon, also made their exits from Strasbourg. Voters might be angry about immigration and the political intransigence of Brussels, but they are not ready to embrace Moscow.

Meanwhile, it will be service as normal in the halls of power in Europe. The European People’s Party (EPP) — which contains all of the familiar big hitters continues to back Ursula von der Leyen as president of the European Commission — remains the largest bloc in the Parliament. None of its members are pro-Russian, and there is no indication that their views on providing support to Ukraine, let alone retreating from the Baltics and the former Communist countries of Eastern Europe, are about to change. Indeed, a resurgent Poland is leading a group of European countries determined to take on Putin, come what may.

Jostling for position behind the EPP is a bitterly divided rabble of Right-wing parties, only a minority of whom are outright pro-Russian. The most pro-Moscow bloc, the Identity and Democracy (ID) grouping of parties, gained a mere nine seats in the elections. But for the past two years, the group has been riven with infighting and allegiance switching as members such as the hard nationalist Finns Party have doubled down on their support for Ukraine and chosen to exit. Despite dalliances with pro-Russian positions, the far-Right in Italy and France remain pro-Ukraine. The crucial issues for the Right, even those more sympathetic to Moscow, are around economy, migration, and values — not about giving the Kremlin a grand strategic victory.

It is more likely that a centre-left bloc will cut a deal with the EPP grouping to offer Moldova and Ukraine new paths to integration , and possibly a route to membership. Even as Medvedev loudly declares the advent of a Russian-led multipolar world, Russia’s former subjects are fast heading in the opposite direction, toward a Europe that is ready to embrace them — and that is pumping great quantities of money and arms into Ukraine. 

After more than two years of total warfare in Ukraine, Moscow is further away than ever from recreating the Soviet and Russian empire. Europe has, once again, overwhelmingly rejected Russia and its useful idiots. The Kremlin’s stooges will keep claiming that the turning point is just over the horizon, but it is hard not to be reminded of the Soviet promise that global revolution is just around the corner. The more that promise is made, the more obvious it is that Russia’s star is waning.

Ian Garner is a historian and analyst of Russian culture and war propaganda. His latest book is Z Generation: Russia’s Fascist Youth (Hurst).

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“It is more likely that a centre-left bloc will cut a deal with the EPP grouping to offer Moldova and Ukraine new paths to integration, and possibly a route to membership.”

All of this quibbling over EU parliamentarians is pointless. They have virtually zero power. They cannot ‘cut a deal’ on anything, let alone bring in new members. The EU Commission and its unelected officials has the sole legal power to bring in legislation. Why do people pretend otherwise?

Russia, Russia, Russia. For 20-odd years, Putin was a European business partner, providing reliable affordable energy and other things. No invasion occurred; none was even hinted at happening. But, hey; let’s put an organization that was designed to battle Russia’s predecessor on the nation’s border and act like that is just fine. Also, when do the defeated take some accountability for recent election outcomes instead of continuing to look for scapegoats?

In fact, Russia has had territorial claims against its neighbors since the collapse of the USSR, but it is better to remain silent about this when discussing the guilt of the West and NATO . PS. Dislikes to this my comment are amazing. There are well-documented evidences for my assertion, but some UnHerd readers believe they know all better than I (former Ukrainian) do. In this sense, they are remarkably similar to the gender specialists who regularly publish in the Lancet. Logic is powerless here.

Logic is powerless here.

You have to be really persistent. Logic and reason seems to have escaped western leadership and a fair share of the population.

Given that the Russian Far Right itself contains a lot of pro Ukrainians, including many actually fighting for Ukraine against their government, Putin and his henchmen should know better than to just assume the Far Right are his friends.

“All the familiar  tactics  were seen in the wild. Moscow hardly bothers to cover its tracks any longer: viral stories on TikTok and Instagram pumped out lurid claims about the opposition,  hackers  caused disruption, and, behind the scenes, Russian agents were hard at work within NGOs and political structures across the continent.”

What’s been familiar has been the evidence-free assertions that the Russians are systematically doing any of that – certainly that they have been at it to a degree anywhere near the levels of their Atlanticsist couterparts. If they’re not bothering to hide their tracks then you shouldn’t have too much trouble in postinga few examples Mr Garner. Please do so if you can. Otherwise I’ll file with Russiagate, Cambridge Analytica/Brexit, Syria CW attacks and the Salisbury Poisonings.

The Maidan Revolution was clearly a CIA coup. Apparently the author hasn’t ever heard of Brzezinski and Wolfowitz…or believes his readers haven’t. It isn’t a Russian empire attempted to be built…

Zbigniew Brezinski and Paul Wolfowitz? What of them?

You’re really not very bright. Russia isn’t building an empire. It’s desperately trying to cling on to the Tsarist one that it kept – and even expanded – as the Soviet Union (all the while trying to con the third world into thinking that it was the anti-imperialist, anti-colonial power). The last remaining empires are Russia, China and France. They will all break up – France and Russia first, then China. All these countries are in denial. France still thinks it should hang on to overseas territories (French Guiana and a load of islands) *as part of France*.

All empires eventually collapse, imperial overstretch etc, and are particularly dangerous during the last phase of over-expansion in an attempt to prolong themselves. However you have failed to mention the empire in exactly that phase ie the US Empire, and the current situation is particularly dangerous.

Because there simply is no US empire. An empire is when you go out and conquer and occupy other countries. So who is in this supposed “US empire” then ? They aren’t occupying any major countries I can think of. Where they have overseas military bases (Japan, Korea, UK, Germany, etc) these are by agreement with these allied countries. It’s even possible for countries to leave NATO if they choose (France did under de Gaulle). Just try that if you’re under Russian/Soviet or Chinese domination. Hungary tried in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968. If you still can’t tell the difference, there’s really no hope.

It conquered a land area,plus Hawaii.

An empire is economic. It is when one country effectively controls the economies of other countries for its own benefit. That is the point of them. Frequently there is military enforcement, sooner or later.

The British Empire is a perfect example. It originated in trade…as in free trade…then “free trade” was enforced by the East India Company troops and the Royal Navy eg India and China.

It started to collapse when the cost became greater than the benefits…but that wasn’t recognised because the Imperialists assumed a “civilising” stance…

The US Empire is in a similar position. The costs are immense but the benefits declining…and it too is cloaking itself in a moral high ground position.

It too is collapsing. Strangely enough it is Trump who recognises it…probably not consciously…

The USA will be isolationist within 30 years…it can afford to be. It will no longer “bear any burden”…

‘It too is collapsing. Strangely enough it is Trump who recognises it…probably not consciously…

The USA will be isolationist within 30 years…it can afford to be. It will no longer “bear any burden”…’

With that in mind – what about a new nato without America in it. Rename/ Rebrand. A uk/ European alliance that includes Ukraine too, then next time the Russians and Americans want a proxy war they can have it elsewhere?

If that is to happen, some other European countries might need to get themselves some nukes!

Who makes NATO nukes? Do you think America would give us some from its nato stockpile if it doesn’t need them for Europe anymore?

There are no “NATO nukes”. There are only nukes belonging to individual countries. Britain made its own nuclear bombs (that’s what AWE did), but uses some US delivery mechanisms. The French did the whole job themselves.

What is this American security umbrella then? I thought if a nato country got nuked America would deploy its nukes? Really, I was generalising. Worded better, who makes the nukes for western nuclear powers? So we can make our own? So we could broom the Americans and create British jobs making British nukes for a uk/ EU nuke security umbrella MAD type deal? Do you think the French would lend us their umbrella if we needed it?

Try using a dictionary if you still don’t understand what an empire is. Besides which, US economic and technological strength is not “collapsing”. This is just wishful thinking by a minority of self-loathing Western citizens. Sad.

Not sure it is just wishful thinking. Are you sure you aren’t down playing Americas problems just a little?

Because there simply is no US empire. The dollar as the world’s reserve currency says otherwise, though this part is subject to change. The US share of funding for NATO and the UN says otherwise. The US having military bases worldwide says otherwise. That does not make any of this good or worth continuing, but to say there is no empire misses the point.

That is not an empire, is it ? Do you need a dictionary ?

Indeed, there is no US empire. It is like cultural marxism everbody talks about. It just does not exist.

Fool…

If ONLY he was THAT clever…..

You signed your post, but forgot to say anything!

The Maidan Revolution was clearly a CIA coup . Only a fool would say such a thing. I have said more than once that just because you don’t drink MSM slop, it doesn’t mean that you should bathe in the sewer of the RT

Shill or stooge?

Paid or just one of those “useful” types?

Presumably you also consider Kennan, Kissinger and Mearsheimer to be paid or stooges. None were… for either side and neither am I.

I just point out what should be obvious to anyone who looks behind the propaganda on both sides…but most don’t.

Kissinger changed his mind after the Russian invasion. Before his death he supported admitting Ukraine to NATO as a part of a peace deal. Mearsheimer is definitely a Russian stooge, not sure if he’s paid or not. But the cat was let completely out of the bag with his pro-Hamas stance after Oct. 7th. All of a sudden he was a realist no more.

And Kennan…clearly a stooge…

Kennan was soft on Communism. He had one good idea (containment) that he turned against almost immediately. In 1948 he wanted us to make nice with Stalin. Truman rejected his nonsense immediately, and he left the State Dept. in 1950. Why should we care what a guy thinks, who had one good idea 80 years ago, that he immediately rejected?

Containment was Containment…it worked…he didn’t advocate roll back…and ir didn’t happen

Really? So Poland is still Communist?

It certainly didn’t happen during the Cold War and certainly wasn’t attempted. Everyone knew what the result of THAT would be…

The whole Reagan/Thatcher/ John Paul II axis was about rolling back the Soviet influence. And it worked. The Cold War didn’t just end, the West went out and intentionally won it with a combination of military competition, economic pressure, and ideological offensives.

So you don’t think the fall of communism in Poland, Czechoslovakia etc were CIA coups. Why not, when you consider Euromaidan a coup?

Totally agree re Mearsheimer.

The Maiden revolution was a people’s revolution, against a government that was elected to forge closer ties with Europe and the west, and then backtracked under Russian pressure and money to align with Russia instead. That was not what people wanted, Ukrainians were sick of Russian domination after decades of abuse, forced famine and severe oppression, they revolted like Eastern Europe did when the Berlin wall fell. To state as fact that this was a purely CIA coup is pure propaganda, and total nonsense. It’s the Ukrainians who took to the streets and said enough is enough with dominance from the Moscow regime and its corrupt oligarchs. Russia has no right to dominate Ukraine if the people don’t want them, but Putin has zero respect for people and just wants to dominate the region. His war economy will eventually collapse under pressure, he will ruin Russia further until even the Russians will wake up and take to the streets when they had enough

Yeh…right…

Or right, the people storming the Capitol to remove the elected government are the real democrats. That makes sense.

No comparison, the fanatics storming the capital had no popular support and fizzled out, it was a security failure, not a popular uprising. Tens of thousands of protesters took to the streets in Ukraine and they had popular support, many lost their lives , their future was at stake. They refused to continue to live under the thumb of Russia.

Not a coup at all. I guess you think the downfall of communism in Eastern Europe in 1989 also was a communist coup.

In his audio book “On Tyranny and On Ukraine Lessons from Russia’s war on Ukraine” Timothy Snyder, the eminent historian of Eastern Europe, gives a historical explanation of why and how Putin is fascist, and the inheritor of Fascism and Nazism in Europe. According to Snyder, Putin leads a corrupt autocracy-cleptocracy that has turned to neo-fascism in an attempt to regain Russia’s imperial glory. Snyder predicted in 2014, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and that a new Russian colonialism would threaten European stability. And he was certainly correct about the European Commission’s cowardly veto of Ukraine’s request, backed by many EU citizens, for a fast-tracked membership the the European Union. Early in the book, or listen to in the better updated audio version, Snyder carefully points out how Volodymyr Zelenskiy could have made a quick exit to many EU and other western countries that would have given him asylum and a comfortable life, when Putin’s conscripted ˜storm troopers” invaded. But he decided to remain and fight. And we are all very much the better for his courageous decision.  According to Robert P Baird, and recorded in Catherine Belton’s “Putin’s People”, Putin began his career as an unknown KGB agent working in backwater Dresden during the Cold War. He carefully established a network that would be responsible for inserting him into the Kremlin’s halls of power. Perceiving him as a politician who would employ whatever means necessary to stay in power, members of the former KGB leadership identified him as the key to maintaining their control over Russia. Putin built an intricate network involving politicians, members of ruthless organized crime organizations, sympathetic journalists, and the ever hungry nouveau riche that are the oligarchs of today, This he successfully conscripted when it served his interests as well as pitting factions against each other when required. Catherine Belton also asserts that Putin’s regime staged the now infamous 2002 Dubrovka Theatre terror attack which resulted in the deaths of close to 200 civilians. The aim of this act of terror was to sway public opinion towards the government taking a firmer hand on the Chechen issue, whose separatists were accused of perpetrating the ruthless attack.

There is at least one European stooge for every Russian stooge.

I hear an awful lot about the far right. Never ever seen one of them though.

Meanwhile, the far left and their Islamic pets are busy destroying civilisation.

There is no need for Russia to interfere in anything. Western elites are so despicable and mistrusted they dig their own graves. Ultimately, their lack of legitimacy will let them drop as a ripe fruit in China’s lap. Europe’s future is an area of low wages in a heavily industrialised and polluted environment producing for the Chinese middle classes. Even a ruin needs to be ruled, so you bet the Eurocrats are preparing themselves for EU Next Generation.

It makes it an astonishingly low quality product for a website that features, among others, people such as Kathleen Stock, Ayaan Hirsi, etc, to publish an article that talks about blatant and open Russian meddling in European affairs, without mentioning the preceding blatant and open American meddling in Ukraine’s (and Europe’s, and Russia’s) affairs, and, in the manner of a typical power-adjacent news medium promotes the following half-truth: “it was the pro-Russian Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych’s decision to reject an EU Association Agreement in 2013 that led to the Maidan Revolution in Kyiv. In turn, Putin in large part decided to invade a few months later as Ukraine looked to be rejecting Russia in favour of Europe.”

Someone reading nothing but the NYT or listening to MSNBC only may find this passable, but I doubt (hope) that most Unherd fans won’t.

There are no far right politicians in Europe. Fascism was always a left wing collectivist program. Mussolini referred to President Roosevelt as a fellow fascist

Delighted that Clare Daly (aka Kremlin Clare), & her sidekick Mick Wallace lost their seats (in Ireland). They were a national embarrassment

An uplifting article. It is clear that Ukraine’s future lies in the EU and in NATO.

Isn’t that scenario part of the problem?

Why ? It’s an independent country and entitled to take decisions on its own future. Do you seriously think Russia should have a veto on what its nearest neighbours can and cannot do ? If so, please explain exactly why that is. And exactly why Ukraine or Poland cannot make the same demands on Russia ? Do we tell the French what they can or can’t do ? Or the French tell the Germans ? It’s the 21st century, not the 19th. No country is entitled to force its neighbours to become buffer states. Besides which, Russia already has direct neighbours in NATO. And the list is +1 (Finland) since 2022.

But the choice is not Ukraine’s alone. It is also one to be made by NATO, which had already promised no expansion eastwards and therefore should not have held out the prospect of membership to Ukraine, or indeed any country east of Germany.

Yes, the “promise” that was supposedly made. If you can provide evidence that a concrete promise was made about NATO expansion during talks after the collapse of the USSR, I’d like to know about it. Claims that someone said something in a meeting don’t count.

It was made by James Baker, US Secretary of State…

As far as I know he didn’t give a promise, he merely stated that they had no intention to expand. Which was true for the administration of Bush the elder. And even if a verbal promise should have been made, later governments are never bound by things said by totally different governments. It has to be put in a treaty and signed. Russia, by the way, did sign the Budapest memorandum, which guaranteed Ukraines borders in exchange for they giving up their nuclear weapons.

You’re making stuff up. I only said that Ukraine had the right to choose it’s own future. Nothing about whether the EU or NATO would (or should) accept Ukraine. You may also have noticed that “circumstances have changed” over the past 10-20 years. Finland and Sweden have quite sensibly and rationally joined NATO as a result (Finland’s east of Germany and part of Sweden is last time I checked). You really do need to explain why you believe that Russia is a country which deserves more rights than other countries. And perhaps give us a list of all the “special countries” which should be allowed to bully their neighbours. And tell us why that is. But I notice you aren’t actually answering any of my questions. Just deflecting.

I didn’t say Ukraine didn’t have the right to choose…I said NATO didn’t because it had promised not to expand eastwards…

Best to read what I wrote.

NATO never promised that.

Still no answers to my questions … you just don’t have any, do you ? Come on, final chance – just who are the “special countries” ?

“It’s the 21st century, not the 19th. No country is entitled to force its neighbours to become buffer states.”

100 years of partition and enforced neutrality in Ireland seems to have worked.

I’m sure the UK would have honored their neighbors independence if they allowed U-boats to port in Galway. Ha!

Enforced neutrality? I thought the Irish chose to be neutral. And when regarding German U- bouts in Ireland. If that had happened during the war, the U.K would have been justified to claim that Ireland wasn’t neutral. There was after all a war going on. But if it had happened in 1936? I don’t think the war would have started over that.

And how is this relevant to my point ?